Lost a steamer replacement

Dave0176

A fellow board member a few months back had me check his whole steam system, oil fired, oversized and piped in 2" copper, and look at the supporting radiation. A lot of the walls were open for renovation, and he was insulating everything going for the rebates, spray insulation new windows etc. we also talked about repiping an extension over his garage which was piped wrong, plus hooking back up a long disconnected garage wall radiator. His one question was would it be better to convert to hot water radiant or mini splits because of the seer ratings and energy rebates plus he didn't like the idea of steam because it worked so poorly for him since he bought his home. Now being a steam man I would NEVER convince someone to rip out their steam system, I tried my best to make him understand a properly installed and operating steam system especially with all the insulation improvements would give a very comfortable home in the winter. I gave my quote and didn't hear back for two months until one day I finally heard back, his plan was mini splits, I told him I wouldn't do it I'd prefer he'd get another contractor, but after a few mins of talking he began to change his mind back and he wanted me as his contractor.

Well here we are in July I finally heard back once again he informing me the he was going in a different direction and was ripping the steam out and going with mini splits as the energy savings and rebates were too hard to pass up. I wished him luck and simply told him would be very disappointed come winter time. And just like that another steam system goes to the scrap yard.

gerry gill

i feel your pain,,,we see that alot around Cleveland also..i tell my guys, don't forget we do plumbing as some day there wont be any steam left. Sad...

MilanD

As a home owner steam aficionado (ha - my auto-correct wanted to change "aficionado" to "addict", smart machine!), for Cincinnati, it looks like there are really no steam pros... I deal with a 10,000 sq.ft. arts center that's one pipe steam, and this got me hooked, but I also had to read and post on this site and read various old and Mr. Holohan's books to learn steam. There are mechanical companies around here that can install boiler to spec, but running it and optimizing - not one person... This includes troubleshooting poor performance. It's mostly new rad vents and turn up pressure with all these guys. I've taught a few guys I know and deal with professionally a few things about residential steam.... I in fact discovered a missing main vent and a location for it that was plugged going back decades. It now has a big mouth. I also reconnected and moved some rads around building, added a few riser vents, and got satisfactory heat to a few rooms for the first time in 20+ years. A few TRVs close to the boiler rads and a few maid-o-mists here and there to balance. I also researched (here on the Wall) and got our LGB to be 2-staged (we have a few zone valves, one on a 600+ EDR auditorium used 2x a week for 2 hours). Silent performance, 8oz pressure, low-high-low... I posted about it here on the Wall.

Anyhow, a few months or so ago on our neighborhood Nextdoor board someone asked to have all their rads and the boiler removed, one pipe steam, given for free if taken out. I tried my best to convince them not to take out the steam, even offered to tune it up for free, but I came to it after they alteady had warm air people do their shtick. It's a wood frame wood siding 1890s house, and they are upgrading inside, although I didn't see they were doing insulation... Brrrr....

So, I rented a hand truck, a trailer, and hired a few guys to help me move it all to my garage. 2 days later, I now have the system that's perfect size for my house. Cost me only the amount of equipment rental and labor, for 11 rads of various sizes and WM EG-55. All but 1 rad match my various rooms heat loss per Slant Fin, and if I do EG 50 burners, it's a match on the boiler for the required EDR load with pick up of 30%. (Their system was oversized.) Talk about Cinderella story...

Plan is now to get the chimney inspected, and then draw up the plan for piping and price them from a smaller local pipe supply company I ordered all pipes I need for the arts center I run. They give me prices they give all their vendors. Afterwards, I'll put it together myself, one room at a time and drop the risers down to the basement, then slowly work it back to the boiler. Final set-up and check-out will be done by one of 2 pros I know mentioned earlier, who have a boiler license and can make sure all the components are working properly.

So, one system will be saved down here in Cincinnati. (Also, my wife is now convinced I'm nuts.)

KC_Jones

You should invite the previous owner over for some comfort since they won't have it anymore. Lol

ChrisJ

It's kind of surprising considering having a lot of quality mini splits installed correctly is far from cheap too, rebates or not.

MilanD

> @KC_Jones said:
> You should invite the previous owner over for some comfort since they won't have it anymore. Lol

I think they have a hate-hate relationship to that system... They told me they spent thousands, as in 4k and change over 3 different companies, to get some knocking in a few risers dealt with. It was one of those with a few rads attached to a single riser, so it needed a little repiping and raising rads for settled floors, that amazingly no one did... Why can't all the contractors be like the guys here? It really steams me up, pun intended, when pros are all but, and I see a lot of it.

MilanD

> @ChrisJ said:
> It's kind of surprising considering having a lot of quality mini splits installed correctly is far from cheap too, rebates or not.

They actually installed 2 regular air handlers, one in the attic for the 2nd floor, and one in the basement for the 1st. Did not want rads... I wrote above about the hate-hate relationship with their steam.

Imagine though, all the holes that will need patching and 127 year old wood floors with well worn in indentations from rads, now visible... But who am I to judge (I do it a lot...), 99% of people will say I'm nuts for wanting steam in my house, with well functioning (although not as comfortable) hot air furnace with cental ac.

Dave0176

The whole rebate thing is a joke too. New Jersey just passed this law saying for a home owner to qualify for a rebate on an AC system upgrade a complete manual J needed to done and submitted to the board of energy by a licensed HVACR contractor before a homeowner qualifies for a rebate. Anyone ever done a complete manual J, it takes time, time I will need to be payed, so where's the rebate!!??

ChrisJ

> @Dave0176 said:
> The whole rebate thing is a joke too. New Jersey just passed this law saying for a home owner to qualify for a rebate on an AC system upgrade a complete manual J needed to done and submitted to the board of energy by a licensed HVACR contractor before a homeowner qualifies for a rebate. Anyone ever done a complete manual J, it takes time, time I will need to be payed, so where's the rebate!!??

Doesn't it also have to be sized for 80f inside as well?

PMJ

My problem with government and rebates is in that system government officials effectively decide what technologies survive and which ones don't going forward. These folks no nothing about managing money and even less about technology. I'm not comfortable at all with them steering our technological ship.

Steam is a very obvious casualty of this system based on numbers I am convinced are flat out wrong. The only measuring stick that makes any sense is overall annualized cost of the system and heat. That is total equipment cost, maintenance cost, and fuel cost. If the equipment doesn't last that cost quickly overwhelms any 10 or 20% fuel savings they are talking about. And I'm not convinced they are adding in the electric cost to continuously blow all the air around ( and the flue gasses outside which wont go on their own anymore). I really don't get it - technology improves I'm told but total annual cost goes up and up for pretty much everything - huh?

I will put my system up against anything they are offering now on a total annualized cost basis. I don't think it would be even close.

Steam is not the only thing being closed down by the government this way. I don't think we should be getting all the way out of anything. To me, the most dangerous thing is being the only ones on the planet that don't know anything about a technology. To know about it you have to actually be doing it - every day. I don't think we should allow to stop completely work on any kind of fuel. You just don't know what is ahead. You can turn things off one hell of a lot faster than you can turn them on.

ChrisJ

PMJ said:

My problem with government and rebates is in that system government officials effectively decide what technologies survive and which ones don't going forward. These folks no nothing about managing money and even less about technology. I'm not comfortable at all with them steering our technological ship.

Steam is a very obvious casualty of this system based on numbers I am convinced are flat out wrong. The only measuring stick that makes any sense is overall annualized cost of the system and heat. That is total equipment cost, maintenance cost, and fuel cost. If the equipment doesn't last that cost quickly overwhelms any 10 or 20% fuel savings they are talking about. And I'm not convinced they are adding in the electric cost to continuously blow all the air around ( and the flue gasses outside which wont go on their own anymore). I really don't get it - technology improves I'm told but total annual cost goes up and up for pretty much everything - huh?

I will put my system up against anything they are offering now on a total annualized cost basis. I don't think it would be even close.

Steam is not the only thing being closed down by the government this way. I don't think we should be getting all the way out of anything. To me, the most dangerous thing is being the only ones on the planet that don't know anything about a technology. To know about it you have to actually be doing it - every day. I don't think we should allow to stop completely work on any kind of fuel. You just don't know what is ahead. You can turn things off one hell of a lot faster than you can turn them on.

Wait.
Are you saying the government is clearly bought and paid for by large corporations and everything revolves around money?

Naaaaa...........can't be. No one would ever say that.

j a_2

The do gooders, just love to pat them selfs on the back...But honestly they have not a clue....As far as a business loosing a job because it's not his thing, I would say maybe want to rethink that one...I truly know where he's coming from, however ya got to be unable to pay ur bills...Mama don't want to hear, no work last week honey....Sux but that's how it is

ChrisJ

j a said:

The do gooders, just love to pat them selfs on the back...But honestly they have not a clue....As far as a business loosing a job because it's not his thing, I would say maybe want to rethink that one...I truly know where he's coming from, however ya got to be unable to pay ur bills...Mama don't want to hear, no work last week honey....Sux but that's how it is

Who are you referring to J A?

j a_2

Reread

ChrisJ said:

j a said:

The do gooders, just love to pat them selfs on the back...But honestly they have not a clue....As far as a business loosing a job because it's not his thing, I would say maybe want to rethink that one...I truly know where he's coming from, however ya got to be unable to pay ur bills...Mama don't want to hear, no work last week honey....Sux but that's how it is

Who are you referring to J A?

Those in the trade know exactly who I am referring to...

ChrisJ

j a said:

Reread

ChrisJ said:

j a said:

The do gooders, just love to pat them selfs on the back...But honestly they have not a clue....As far as a business loosing a job because it's not his thing, I would say maybe want to rethink that one...I truly know where he's coming from, however ya got to be unable to pay ur bills...Mama don't want to hear, no work last week honey....Sux but that's how it is

Who are you referring to J A?

Those in the trade know exactly who I am referring to...

Ok.
How about sharing for those not in the trade, being this website caters to everyone?

j a_2

j a said:

Reread

ChrisJ said:

j a said:

The do gooders, just love to pat them selfs on the back...But honestly they have not a clue....As far as a business loosing a job because it's not his thing, I would say maybe want to rethink that one...I truly know where he's coming from, however ya got to be unable to pay ur bills...Mama don't want to hear, no work last week honey....Sux but that's how it is

Who are you referring to J A?

Those in the trade know exactly who I am referring to...

And that's kinda who the response was directed at...I love to see the small mom and pop business do good...

j a_2

ChrisJ said:

j a said:

Reread

ChrisJ said:

j a said:

The do gooders, just love to pat them selfs on the back...But honestly they have not a clue....As far as a business loosing a job because it's not his thing, I would say maybe want to rethink that one...I truly know where he's coming from, however ya got to be unable to pay ur bills...Mama don't want to hear, no work last week honey....Sux but that's how it is

Who are you referring to J A?

Those in the trade know exactly who I am referring to...

Ok.
How about sharing for those not in the trade, being this website caters to everyone?

How about you list some guestions that I may be able to help you with..I will give it my best try, if I get some free time....It's funny how being retired makes you see things differently...Are you retired?

Fred

j a said:

ChrisJ said:

j a said:

Reread

ChrisJ said:

j a said:

The do gooders, just love to pat them selfs on the back...But honestly they have not a clue....As far as a business loosing a job because it's not his thing, I would say maybe want to rethink that one...I truly know where he's coming from, however ya got to be unable to pay ur bills...Mama don't want to hear, no work last week honey....Sux but that's how it is

Who are you referring to J A?

Those in the trade know exactly who I am referring to...

Ok.
How about sharing for those not in the trade, being this website caters to everyone?

How about you list some guestions that I may be able to help you with..I will give it my best try, if I get some free time....It's funny how being retired makes you see things differently...Are you retired?

ChrisJ retired? Are you kidding me? He's like a millennial, early 30's. Sorry Chris, I had to throw the millennial thing in there. I know how you feel about that.

ChrisJ

Fred said:

j a said:

ChrisJ said:

j a said:

Reread

ChrisJ said:

j a said:

The do gooders, just love to pat them selfs on the back...But honestly they have not a clue....As far as a business loosing a job because it's not his thing, I would say maybe want to rethink that one...I truly know where he's coming from, however ya got to be unable to pay ur bills...Mama don't want to hear, no work last week honey....Sux but that's how it is

Who are you referring to J A?

Those in the trade know exactly who I am referring to...

Ok.
How about sharing for those not in the trade, being this website caters to everyone?

How about you list some guestions that I may be able to help you with..I will give it my best try, if I get some free time....It's funny how being retired makes you see things differently...Are you retired?

ChrisJ retired? Are you kidding me? He's like a millennial, early 30's. Sorry Chris, I had to throw the millennial thing in there. I know how you feel about that.

Early 30s?
I wish..........

PMJ

> @ChrisJ said:
> Wait.
> Are you saying the government is clearly bought and paid for by large corporations and everything revolves around money?
>
> Naaaaa...........can't be. No one would ever say that.
>
>

Everything always has revolved around money. The rebate thing though is taking directly out of public funds and handing the cash to some corporations and not to their competitors. The financial rules suddenly get changed by large percentages in the middle of the game. This is relatively new and particularly offensive. I'm not pretending that the game was ever clean. But it seems to be now that there is no attempt at all to separate public and private activities.

BobC

It's sad seeing whole branches of technology wither and die in this country just because it's cheaper to do it over there. All our whiz bang weapons are made from chips that are made overseas, if you want to cripple us all you have to do is shut off the supply of chips.

First we stop manufacturing it and then we get pushed out of the design end and a while later we have no idea how it works. We are allowing others to wrap their hands around our throats just to increase profits and those all go up to the executive suit, not to R&D where tomorrows profits are born.

The Fitzgerald is an example, that ship was probably blinded by some sort of directed energy weapon that blinded all it's sensors and the same thing happened in the Black Sea several months ago. The difference is the Black Sea incident was just a test run, they followed the blinding of the Fitzgerald with ramming and possibly an anti-ship missile. Now we have a fleet of very expensive ships that have been nullified by new technology. The current pogrom against science will be our undoing. We need to increase spending on all forms of R&D if we want the country to stay relevant.

Bob

PMJ

You are quite right Bob.

But what really has been lost is the support infrastructure required to actually build anything. For every employee inside a big factory there were 10 outside it at suppliers for it. Tool makers, heat treaters, repair techs, platers, the list is endless. News flash - those jobs paid more than retailing the imported stuff. It takes a generation or two to even pretend you have enough folks with the skills required for these things once they are gone. That assumes there is even any interest in doing them which today there is not. In 1960 Cleveland was the fastener capitol of the world. The Cadillac bolt making machine was made in Tiffin Ohio. Today, we not only don't make the bolts, we don't really even make the machines to make the bolts here anymore. The family sold the business to Citicorp which bankrupted it and the family bought it back for nothing. Today they mostly rebuild their 1960's era machines for the few plants still out there. The US military removed the requirement that all the bolts be US made for our equipment some 10 years ago - not enough domestic sources. We will eventually find ourselves buying the bullets from the guys we need to shoot at. I think I read the plan in that case is you just switch to another foreign source. Good luck with that.

MilanD

> @BobC said:
> It's sad seeing whole branches of technology wither and die in this country just because it's cheaper to do it over there. All our whiz bang weapons are made from chips that are made overseas, if you want to cripple us all you have to do is shut off the supply of chips.
>
> First we stop manufacturing it and then we get pushed out of the design end and a while later we have no idea how it works. We are allowing others to wrap their hands around our throats just to increase profits and those all go up to the executive suit, not to R&D where tomorrows profits are born.
>
> The Fitzgerald is an example, that ship was probably blinded by some sort of directed energy weapon that blinded all it's sensors and the same thing happened in the Black Sea several months ago. The difference is the Black Sea incident was just a test run, they followed the blinding of the Fitzgerald with ramming and possibly an anti-ship missile. Now we have a fleet of very expensive ships that have been nullified by new technology. The current pogrom against science will be our undoing. We need to increase spending on all forms of R&D if we want the country to stay relevant.
>
> Bob

It's called quarterly profit. Key being - quartey. This includes suppliers for the military branches.

Also, in case it's missed, most big corporations that control our government are multinationals, or at least have combined global business interests. Meaning, patriotism and national interests went out of the window a while ago (lobbying), as far as government and corporations are concerned.

I'll leave it at that.

Jean-David Beyer

what really has been lost is the support infrastructure required to actually build anything

For sure. Some politician was claiming to bring jobs back to the US. He said we had lots of manufacturing capability here. He was talking about infrastructure mainly, but also Amtrak wanted an exception from the Buy American act for electric railroad locomotives. But even if we have an unused electric locomotive factory somewhere, consider that the last US designed electric locomotive was the General Electric E-60, and that was a failure. We to not have the design ability in our culture anymore. It is not enough to read a textbook on how to design electric railroad locomotives (if anyone has written such a book). You need design engineers, production engineers, and all the technicians who know everything that you normally get during your apprenticeship, and we no longer have anyone qualified to teach that stuff anymore. You have to get electric locomotives from Alstom (French, but partly owned by GE of USA), ABB (Sweden and Switzerland), and Siemens (Germany). We may have unemployed workers and empty factories, but we do not have the ability do design and build those things. It would take a generation or two to restore that capacity. Politicians are incapable of thinking even one generation ahead.

BobC

"Politicians are incapable of thinking even one generation ahead"

The pols only care about the next election cycle and business only cares about the next quarter. This country is in deep trouble and if we don't wake up we will become irrelevant.

Bob

Fred

@Jean-David Beyer , I don't think that is completely accurate. Many, if not most of the products manufactured abroad for American companies are designed/engineered here in the states to American specifications. It's the labor that's cheap abroad that entices offshore production (or so they think). Also, when those items arrive on our shores, Americans install and support them throughout their life.

PMJ

I am truly startled by how many folks think you can control all the knowledge and all the wealth of products far away from the factories. Doesn't work that way in the long haul. The real knowledge and skills needed to design and build things are accumulating over there, not here. I'm not sure where this idea came from that we are the only ones smart enough to design anything. There is a parallel idea that anything happening in and around factories can be handled by low paid dumb people and I don't get how we got there either. Neither idea is anywhere close to the truth. Unfortunately, both of these ideas have been sold to our youth and they surely are not interested in factories anymore. Like I said above, it takes a few decades minimum to build this kind of capability. Make no mistake, design capability is steadily growing over there among those who build and run the factories.

There is no such thing as a world power that doesn't make its own stuff. Like the later generations of the formerly rich family still walking the walk long after the real money is gone we can kid ourselves a while longer. Take a trip over there. The true wealth accumulation is stunning. They have the factories now. That is where the real wealth is building now. You really have to visit to appreciate it. Absolutely stunning compared to anything here. Built by what? Making stuff. Just like we did here until we chose to give it all away.