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VisionPro 8000 series - green screen

ChrisJ
ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,970
Hey guys,

Has anyone ever had a VP 8000, the older style with green screen come out of the box several degrees off?
I bought a NOS 8231 and just started using it and noticed right off the bat it was showing 3 degrees warmer than other thermometers, including one I sat right on top of it.

I tried stuffing insulation in the electrical box behind it, thinking maybe it was picking up a draft from inside the wall or something, no real change.

Do these also measure wall temperature some how or something? It seems odd, because I don't recall it being off in this way back in February when it was just sitting on the wall doing nothing but showing indoor temp.

So far, I corrected the problem with option 700, temperature offset.

It just seems really odd, to have this issue.
Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment

Comments

  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 2,919
    Some times they need to acclimate for a while (esp. if they've been sitting in a freezing cold truck immediately before installation!).

    They do sense wall temp, to a greater or lesser degree. If the wall is significantly warmer/cooler than the setpoint, it could take a while to gain control of the space. Remember, we use air to control the surface temp of the space. If the sun is beating down on the outside of that wall, you may have issues.

    Do check the calibration with a thermometer or two. They are occasionally off, but 3* is a lot. It's my opinion that the calibration setting is mainly for the customer's amusement.

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,970
    ratio said:

    Some times they need to acclimate for a while (esp. if they've been sitting in a freezing cold truck immediately before installation!).

    They do sense wall temp, to a greater or lesser degree. If the wall is significantly warmer/cooler than the setpoint, it could take a while to gain control of the space. Remember, we use air to control the surface temp of the space. If the sun is beating down on the outside of that wall, you may have issues.

    Do check the calibration with a thermometer or two. They are occasionally off, but 3* is a lot. It's my opinion that the calibration setting is mainly for the customer's amusement.

    I've been messing with it a bit.
    I think it was the wall temp throwing it off mainly.

    However, I learned something new.
    I knew, these thermostats lied about the indoor temp to make you think it's closer, or at your setpoint than it really is.

    What I didn't realize, was the indoor temp it displays, is unrelated to what it, it self is actually doing. Great, I guess I'm getting old because I can't remember what exactly took place, other than the thermostat turned the system on, even though the indicated indoor temp suggested it should not. 5-10 seconds later, the displayed temperature changed.

    I always thought the displayed indoor temp, was sort of "linked" to what the thermostat it self was doing. It's not, it's totally separate. It may use the same sensor(s) but the software running isn't the same.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 2,919
    Yes. Honeywell is especially bad for that, but I think most/all digitals show you what they believe they are doing, i.e. controlling the temp to the setpoint, vs raw sensor & output data. It makes sense from the mfgr's point of view. How many returns are they going to get because "this thing keeps going from 71-73 even though I set it at 72!!!!1!", or "well, it was comfortable, but the number kept changing, so I set the differential to .2 and then it kept turning on and off every couple of minutes all day long."

    At least, that's been my experience with the old lines. I dunno about the new T-whatever line yet, but my latest orders are to try them out on some unsuspecting customers. ;)

    It's also possible that the control loop in the stat updates a lot more often than the display loop. That would also explain the jump you saw.

    I wonder if there's a market for a stat that displayed detailed realtime sensor information, let you adjust the PID gains, & logged important data. Kind of like the Nest, but useful and not trendy.

  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    edited June 2017
    I liked my lux in the old house. Real time temp. Adjustable calibration. Logged daily run time,and yearly. No frills, but very accurate.

    For 40 bucks.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,970
    edited June 2017
    Gordy said:

    I liked my lux in the old house. Real time temp. Adjustable calibration. Logged daily run time,and yearly. No frills, but very accurate.

    For 40 bucks.

    Hey @Gordy

    No hot blasts.
    and the 3 ton system has been balls out for over 6 hours now.

    High of 95 today, it's 94 right now.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    Well of course silly if it's never shut off in 6 hours. What was indoor temp on commissioning?
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    Wait for the mrt to reach equilibrium. Then report back. I think your theory is correct cooling verses heating though.
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 8,934
    What inside temp are you shooting for?

    You must have gotten the pressure bugs worked out of the system?

    I called HW customer service a couple of years with questions concerning temp diff from on to off. There were answers with the term of "logarithms" used a lot in the answers. They just want people to think the temperature never changes in the room and the T-stat is responsible that this is achieved.
    People (retired geezers) will watch numbers and compare them to their little digital thermometer that shows tenths of a degree. Your phone might ring because of this.
    Thank goodness that T-stats do not do tenths.

    I have installed the T-stat "gift" from the children for older people.
    Of course it is the lower end of anything available.
    Some things I have observed in T-stats are:
    Have no door to open, always a POS that either falls off or needs a crowbar to open and has gouges from tools.
    Show 2 numbers on the screen....the "real" temp of the room and the setting of the T-stat.
    Batteries that are easy to change, no tools required, don't pull the T-stat off the wall to get to them.
    Have installer program to set max heat and mini cool temps.
    (You know it cools quicker if set to 55......did I do that 2 days ago??? is that why the coil is frozen up???

    For me the simple T-stats are the HW 5000 & 6000 for the older crowd (and that is almost me included).

    Just about every programmable T-stat I come across is set to permanent "Hold"???
    GordyTim Potter
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,970
    Gordy said:

    Well of course silly if it's never shut off in 6 hours. What was indoor temp on commissioning?

    Gordy said:

    Wait for the mrt to reach equilibrium. Then report back. I think your theory is correct cooling verses heating though.

    Do you really think I'm that stupid?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    I don't believe I said that.
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,970
    So,
    The tstat often would show 4 degrees too high here, other times, like at night it was fine. This was annoying because I couldn't just set it 4 degrees higher, it would end up way too warm in the house at night.

    I bought an external sensor and started messing around. Tried all over, even on the first floor in a few spots. After getting aggravated I decided to do the most stupid thing I could think of with it.

    Of course, it works flawless here. It's been there for a few days now.
    I can only assume the wall is somehow effecting the thermostat, but why not the sensor!?!





    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 2,919
    The sensor is not in contact with the wall, nor is it in a position to be influenced by any air that makes its way through the insulation you stuffed in the back box. (The hole should have a non-permeable seal over it, like tape or caulk). It's also possible that you have an intermittent fault in the stat.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,970
    ratio said:

    The sensor is not in contact with the wall, nor is it in a position to be influenced by any air that makes its way through the insulation you stuffed in the back box. (The hole should have a non-permeable seal over it, like tape or caulk). It's also possible that you have an intermittent fault in the stat.

    I was thinking about buying Honeywell's larger wall plate and putting foam tape all over the back of it as a thin layer of insulation. Thoughts?

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 8,934
    If it was consistently off by some degrees that is one thing. But if it is an intermittent problem I would return it under warranty.

    IIRC there is a place in setup to show false rooms temps if desired.
    It sounds like it is going in and out of that 4 degree faux temp display.
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,228
    @ChrisJ Try putting a sheet of Styrofoam (1/4 to 3/8") behind the thermostat so it won't see the wall. They used to sell these at Home Depot at one time.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    How long is that going to look that way? Says the wife :D
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 2,919
    ChrisJ said:

    I was thinking about buying Honeywell's larger wall plate and putting foam tape all over the back of it as a thin layer of insulation. Thoughts?

    Couldn't hurt. I hear that in Ye Olden Years an insulated subbase was available. I've seen it specced on any number of jobs, but never seen one IRL. I'm inclined to move the stat to a better location, but that isn't always possible—in those situations I use a wireless sensor. RedLINK is great!

  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,228
    If putting sheet foam behind the thermostat works cut it about 1/8" smaller on all edges and paint the edges the color as the wall. that should mollify she who has to be obeyed.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,970
    edited June 2017









    Here's what I came up with last night. I'd say it doesn't, or shouldn't need any more than that. Even the grommet the wires pass through is very tight along with the foam tape on the back around the wires. The foam tape is two layers thick, and also acts as a gasket against the wall.

    Still having the issue.

    What are the chances the 7 copper wires are warming the base?! It's only 5 feet or so between the thermostat and the attic. I know copper is an excellent thermal conductor, it just seems too fantastic.

    The wall didn't even feel warm last night and now I have the external sensor almost touching the wall, wired directly into the thermostat sitting along side it.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 2,919
    Still intermittent? Try a new stat. You have six/eight in the back of your truck, right? :)

    I've never (knowingly, or even suspected) had an issue with the thermal conductivity of copper with anything, let alone a thermostat. The fact that it's intermittent proves that it's either an intermittent fault or an intermittent influence.

    Actually, try relocating the stat, or maybe just pull it off the wall and let it hang there, with a couple've feet of wire out the wall. That should eliminate anything coming down behind it, and even if it is heat being conducted through the wires, a few feet in the conditioned space should temper that. SHMBO will be ok with that for a day or so, right?

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,970
    ratio said:

    Still intermittent? Try a new stat. You have six/eight in the back of your truck, right? :)

    I've never (knowingly, or even suspected) had an issue with the thermal conductivity of copper with anything, let alone a thermostat. The fact that it's intermittent proves that it's either an intermittent fault or an intermittent influence.

    Actually, try relocating the stat, or maybe just pull it off the wall and let it hang there, with a couple've feet of wire out the wall. That should eliminate anything coming down behind it, and even if it is heat being conducted through the wires, a few feet in the conditioned space should temper that. SHMBO will be ok with that for a day or so, right?

    I'm tempted to swap my other VP8000 in, it looks like the wires will line up close enough. The only huge downside is no high stage, which will be fine on cooler days, but not really when I need to test it. The hotter days is when it's worse.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 2,919
    If it's an actual VisionPro 8xxx, it should line up just fine. There's an indexing teat on the base (IIRC) that will need to be ...field modified... to interchange the stats.

    It would be apparent at the same rate it's been occurring with the old stat if it was an external influence. It should stop of it's an internal fault.

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,970
    ratio said:

    If it's an actual VisionPro 8xxx, it should line up just fine. There's an indexing teat on the base (IIRC) that will need to be ...field modified... to interchange the stats.

    It would be apparent at the same rate it's been occurring with the old stat if it was an external influence. It should stop of it's an internal fault.

    The A\C one is an 8321 I think? The heating one is a base model, 8110 maybe?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • delta T
    delta T Member Posts: 860
    I have vague recollections of a setting in the installer menu buried deep and not in the manual where you can change the display to display the actual temp. I really cannot remember if this was HW but thats what we use 99% of the time. You know those settings that are 'factory settings' with no descriptions as you go through the installer setup? If memory serves right it was one of those and it was pulling teeth to get it out of tech support.

    I may not be remembering that right though....could have been a different brand. Customer was an engineer and wanted to not be given bad data, understood that there would be temperature differentials and that was normal and okay, only reason I was willing to explore it.

    Intermittent problem though, could be a defective t-stat. That's the easy place to start.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,970
    So, besides the TXV bull...............stuff...............
    Another constant problem has been the thermostat.

    The original location I chose on the second floor for both a large return and the thermostat works too well in regards to collecting hot air from the first floor. To the point, on really hot days that area ends up 2-4 degrees warmer than anywhere else.

    With all dampers wide open, even my bedrooms on the second floor stay almost the same as the entire first floor, maybe a tad cooler which is beautiful. I have no idea how that happened, but I'm not going to question it.

    So, I spent a lot of time moving an external sensor around the house to see what was the best overall single location for the thermostat and I found on the first floor at the bottom of the stairs was really good. Even after over a week of testing and a huge variety of outdoor conditions, it worked well.

    So, I moved it there and unhooked the external sensor.
    Right off the bat, it was reading too warm, approximately 2 degrees. Now the good news was, at least it's somewhat consistent unlike the previous area that changes too much with outdoor conditions.

    I have a single stage, basic model VP8000 sitting right on top of it, reading 2 degrees cooler. Later I moved this a few feet away but at the same vertical height.

    I used my IR thermometer to measure wall temperature, all looked appropriate, however, the VP it self, measured higher! Especially the right side.

    I decided to disable the continuous backlight, which I've always used on my other one for years. As soon as I did that, without touching anything else, the system turned off, and stayed off for a long time. All of a sudden it appears, this VP matches my other VP's temperature, and, the indoor thermometers.

    I just did this last night around 9PM so I haven't had much time to watch it, but so far, it's behaving normal.

    The model I've used for heat since 2012 or so, is a TH8110. This one is a TH8321 so it has all of the mutli-stage stuff and humidity. I never noticed the 8110's backlight warming up the thermostat?


    So all of that said.................






    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 2,919
    Pay no attention to these external influences. <handwave> These are not the external influences you are looking for.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    edited July 2017
    I'm picturing a wife saying in the back ground. "When will this project be done?", or " I told you we should have hired somebody".
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,970
    Gordy said:

    I'm picturing a wife saying in the back ground. "When will this project be done?", or " I told you we should have hired somebody".

    My wife never says we should've hired somebody.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Gordy
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 8,934
    These projects probably keep you out of the way and as long as she is comfortable she is happy. ;)

    I'm sure you set these HW tstats up so they know you are using a remote sensor and not the tstat sensor.
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,970
    edited July 2017
    Someone has a THX9421 Prestige kit coming tomorrow. :D

    Giving up on this TH8321. I'm pretty certain something isn't right.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 2,919
    Nice. I've got a few of those running some 70 ton Aaon units. 4 cool 2 heat. They expose staging ΔT/timers, cycles per hour for all stages (& include a short description of what it means), and PID coefficients. I wonder how all those interact.
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,970
    ratio said:

    Nice. I've got a few of those running some 70 ton Aaon units. 4 cool 2 heat. They expose staging ΔT/timers, cycles per hour for all stages (& include a short description of what it means), and PID coefficients. I wonder how all those interact.

    Do I need the internet gateway for logging?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 2,919
    edited July 2017
    Dunno. I haven't really looked at them too much. I'll probably be setting up a Total Connect account for them some time next week.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,970
    ratio said:

    Dunno. I haven't really looked at them too much. I'll probably be setting up a Total Connect account for them some time next week.

    Right now I'm trying to figure out where to put the EIM.
    The basement, or the attic.

    They claim it's fine to operate at 165F, so temperature apparently isn't an issue.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 2,919
    Right beside the router. The wireless link should be fairly robust—I hear it's based on their 900 MHz security kit: I've got a hard time believing that would be unreliable.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,970
    ratio said:

    Right beside the router. The wireless link should be fairly robust—I hear it's based on their 900 MHz security kit: I've got a hard time believing that would be unreliable.

    No, no, I mean where I should install the equipment interface.

    I can put it in the basement, or the attic. There's downsides to both.
    The easiest for wiring, is the attic. The duct sensors are right there, the wet switch is right there etc. I have 18/8 wire pulled in a conduit going from the basement to the attic so that can power the thermostat, and connect the boiler.

    If I put the EIM in the basement, I'll need to some how pull 30+ foot wires for each duct sensor to connect them, and the wet switch will remain separate.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 2,919
    Ah, I should have caught that. Attic'd be where I try it first, on the unit or a convenient truss/joist.