Buderus versus System 2000

thomase00

I don't see a lot of details in the manual regarding how to install the DHW tank. I also don't see much regarding the Smart Vent. Are there other documents?

Roger

The plate heat exchanger arrangement heats the tank from the top down by using a domestic hot water pump and forced circulation. This means that the top is hot and there is a reservoir of colder water at the bottom of the tank that is always feeding the heat exchanger. When the thermostat is satisfied, this reservoir is almost perfectly balanced with the amount of heat left in the boiler. Because of this temperature difference, our boilers can heat water at full output and purge at the end of the cycle. The boiler finishes colder and the tank finishes full of hot water.

In tanks with coils heated by any boiler, the temperature difference between the tank and boiler constantly reduces as the tank heats, reducing the rate of heat transfer. As you mentioned, purging is not as effective when the tank is hot as is the case with tanks with coils; there is no cold water reservoir to draw against.

Roger

Roger

The Smart Vent is typically installed with Centrotherm - those polypropylene instructions apply. It can also be installed with our stainless steel "nozzle" style sidewall vent. There is also a hot water installation manual.

Roger

DanHolohan

Sunday service, too! Wow.

thomase00

That kind of makes sense. With an indirect, whose coil is at the bottom (at least for mine), you are relying only on convection to move the heated water up and away from the coil. During a purge, the boiler temp will only approach the DHW tank temp asymptotically. At some point, the heat transfer through the coil may be so low that piping losses dominate. With the EK system, it seems like the boiler can reach temp equilibrium with the DHW tank much more quickly. If the digital energy manager is programmed with the DHW set point, it can stop the purge when the DHW aquastat is satisfied and the boiler reaches the same temp. Even better if the digital energy manager gets the actual DHW temp reading rather than a simple on/off from the DHW aquastat. Also, the DHW tank aquastat must be right at the bottom.

Roger

Thanks, thomase00 and Dan!
You're on the right track, although the solution is even simpler. If you know the amount of heat left in the boiler based on its temperature and mass, then you can locate the aquastat so the volume of water in the reservoir matches the energy left in the boiler. That location acts as a heat anticipator and keeps the overall system simple for setup and diagnosis, and it performs exceptionally well for energy efficiency - an elegant solution!
Roger

hot_rod

Heat exchange like that is always best with two pumped flows, if a coil type indirect has a constant DHW recir you would see better exchange. But you end up with a non stratified tank, I think, less DHW output, or stored energy..

With flat plat HX you can get a lot of surface area, lots of HX and close approach temperatures. If properly sized.
Keep them scalper and they are an ideal heat exchange device.

With enough boiler output, and a properly sized plate HX you have could get endless DHW supply.

Exergy is a term used to describe useful energy.

A stratified tank with 100F at the bottom and 140F at top will deliver have more useful energy stored than a tank with a consistent temperature. Here is a graphis and some math on that from Idronics 17. It is discussing thermal storage for a heating load, but the stored energy concept applies to DHW also.

Tanks are still viable when you have dump loads like a spa tube with a 12- 20 gpm faucet flow

It always comes down to how you plan on using DHW. How much, how fast, and cost related to generating and storing it.

thomase00

Does the EK tank have 2 inlets and 2 outlets? One pair to draw out hot water for fixtures and bring in makeup water. Another pair for the DHW recirculation loop to and from the HX.

Roger

Yes, although the cold/makeup water connection at the bottom is often combined with the cold feed to the heat exchanger. The top has separate tappings.

HVACNUT

> @DanHolohan said:
> Sunday service, too! Wow.

>> I think that gets double time and a half.

DanHolohan

Yes, and for me, triple appreciation. This is astonishing service from a manufacturer.

thomase00

Clearly, this is his passion. Thanks Roger!

DanHolohan

And we are the beneficiaries.

Roger

You're welcome - glad to help!

sunnykapp

Hi I am in a pickle here, my system2000 has a leak and I need to decide between a Buderus or another system 2000. I have a DHW tank, fairly new attached that provides DHW all oil fired. Seriously it is January 15th and I woke up to a flooded basement and no heat on the top floor of the house in the NEK of Vermont.....any suggestions? I am leaning towards the Buderus but need some input, thanks! The System 200 would be a wait I think but the Buderus can be done day after tomorrow.

thomase00

FYI, I wound up going with the System2000 Resolute with sidewall venting. It was roughly the same cost as Buderus. I particularly liked that the exhaust is diluted unlike the Buderus direct vent. I also did have the whole system moved 25 ft. in order to be closer to the wall through which I wanted to vent.

I hope your leaking System2000 is nice and old (i.e. I hope I didn't make the wrong choice).

sunnykapp

The system2000 is about 12 years old, so not sure why it hasn't lasted the 30 they advertise. Most of the people I have had in the house today suggest the cast iron for durability, but the noise is a trade off.

thomase00

That is alarmingly short-lived! Serviced annually?

Roger

Sunnykapp,

I'll send you a message to ask you for more information so our territory manager in Vermont can follow up and find out more. We know our longevity is on par with the best cast iron boilers, so based on your description, I would like him to help determine possible causes, many of which may impact the life of the heating system moving forward.

Thank you,
Roger
President, Energy Kinetics

DanHolohan

Sunnykapp, service like that? Well, gosh.

hot_rod

What type of distribution is it connected to? Any pex or rubber tube?

I'd grab a sample of the system fluid before it gets too diluted, often the clues to early failure reside in the "liquid".

rick in Alaska

My question is this; Where did it leak from?
I replaced one because the relief valve was leaking and no matter what I said, the housing people told me to change it out. I did, but I also took the old one home as it was perfectly fine.
So, is it possible it leaked from the relief valve? System 2000 is pretty bulletproof.
Rick

Grallert

If it were me and I lived where you do, or actually lived where I do, I'd be concerned with getting my heating back up asap. They're both very good boilers. Neither one is a compromise in quality.

Roger

Our territory manager was in contact with Sunnykapp and offered to help out. There was some confusion about the age of the system, possibly because she was not the original owner - the boiler turned out to be 28 years old, not 12 years old.

DanHolohan

Wow!

SuperTech

Buderus vs EK

I know I'm bumping an old thread but I have to comment on this one for anyone who will read this in the future.

I'm a service technician and I have worked on several boilers made by both manufacturers
Both boilers offer fantastic efficiency and are easy to clean.

But if I was going to choose one for my own house I would get the Energy Kinetics boiler without hesitation.

The EK1 frontier rarely needs traditional cleaning with a brush and vacuum. I have never seen one plugged. I can't say that about Buderus. I prefer the Beckett AFG to the Riello for ease of service and availability of parts. The EK only has maybe 2 model specific parts, and if they fail the boiler can be made to run safely without them in under two minutes by a trained tech.

Another thing to consider is the fact that I have seen several System 2000 Boilers that were installed in the 80s and are still running like a champ.

I really like three pass boilers and Buderus is great, but I believe that the Energy Kinetics EK1 is the finest oil fired boiler on the market.

And yes, customer service and tech support are top notch too. Either way you go installation and set up are crucial.

laurendelco

We have been quoted for a EK-1 to be used with our existing water heater. The tech indicated that we will likely need to replace our existing water tank in the next few years. Is it worth it just to bite the bullet and buy the EK-1 system with the tank now even though our existing tank has a few more years of life?

Roger

I’m sure you’ll be very happy with your System 2000 EK-1.
I would recommend upgrading your tank for both the energy savings (5% to 10% annual savings over an indirect tank) and it will probably be more cost-effective to do it with the system now than in a few years as a standalone project. You should confirm pricing with your installer to be sure.
Roger

laurendelco

Thanks Roger. The technician came back quoting us for an 80 gallon superstor tank to be used with the EK-1 he originally quoted us. Any idea why he would suggest the superstor tank over the energy kinetic integrated tank?

Best,

Lauren

Roger

Thank you, Lauren. Indirect tanks with coils are a very good way to make hot water. I would say that different installers have different preferences. Our experience is the the plate heat exchanger and storage tank performs at a higher level of efficiency. The longevity and performance are also very good, which holds true in hard water applications with a scale stopper to prevent mineral deposits.
Roger

OilBoiler

I have a boiler from 1970! It is beginning to go. My oil dealer recommended Ascent Energy Kinetics. I don't see that mentioned here. Is that the same as EK2000?
Also... I do not have, nor do I want a water tank. Do I have to have one with this?
Thanks!

szwedj

OilBoiler if you go to the Energy Kinetics website and click on the products tab, you will see the Ascent boiler listed there. The Ascent does not need a tank to make or store domestic hot water. https://energykinetics.com/ascent-combi-boiler/

HVACNUT

The Acent is an oil or gas fired combi of sorts. No separate tank needed. I've worked on a few and it seems like a good boiler, as does the whole EK line.
One complaint I got was insufficient hot water. Tech support said they need to turn the hot faucet on, off, on to initiate a domestic call sometimes.

szwedj

The control used can be set to maintain temperature or cold start. There are even some options in between where the control can learn the homeowners typical hot water usage so the boiler will be preheated and ready. The installer can call Energy Kinetics Tech Support to discuss the best option to set the control.

OilBoiler

Thank you for your help. Would you recommend a different boiler - rather then the Ascent in the EK line?

szwedj

OilBoiler, You stated that you did not want a tank, the Ascent is the only system EK offers that does not use a tank (either storage or indirect) for domestic hot water.

HVACNUT

> @OilBoiler said:
> Thank you for your help. Would you recommend a different boiler - rather then the Ascent in the EK line?

If it were me, I'd go with the EK-1 Frontier. But you need the water heater if you have no other means. The 90% Resolute is nice but pricey.
Those 3 are your oil options.

Loco7

A few years have passed since this thread was started. Are there any new comments to help me choose between Buderus versus System 2000? Is the SYS2k more efficient than the Buderus enough to make it worth the price differential? Thank you!