Buderus versus System 2000

BoilerNewbie

I am a homeowner in need of a new oil burning boiler. Trying to decide between the Buderus and the Energy Kinetics System 2000. Fairly large home (5,400sq feet). We use oil, not gas, for heating. What would you recommend? I am concerned about the maintenance of the Buderus. I've heard that if you don't get an installer or serviced who knows how to take care of the Buderus, it could become problematic.

BoilerNewbie

I'm a fairly new home owner in need of a new boiler (oil burning). Trying to decide between the Buderus and the Energy Kinetics System 2000. Would use a Superstor indirect heating tank with it. Any pros or cons to either boiler? I'm not knowledgable enough to care about the different mechanics; I just want the most reliable functioning boiler, and easiest to maintain. I have heard that if you get a Buderus, you have to be careful with who installs and maintains it, because if someone is not familiar with the system, problems could result. Any advice would be appreciated!

GW

Yes it's like Ford vs Chevy for many heating guys

Your last statement is true for any appliance.

I never became a EK 2000 believer, if something breaks down the road you need EK parts. Buderus oil boilers use common easily accessible parts.

If you get the Buderus 2107 control, not a lot of heating contractors know what to do with it. I've always been surprised how few fully understand it.

Paul Pollets

You have to be careful no matter who installs the boiler. Caveat Emptor...

BoilerNewbie

Thank you. Confirms what I've heard.

Robert O'Brien

Both very reliable and efficient. System 2000 is quieter and somewhat more efficient. Can't go wrong either way assuming correct sizing and installation.

Robert O'Brien

You should not use an indirect with the System 2000. You lose the ability to purge from the boiler on DHW. The thermal purge is what separates the EK. And what Paul said....

CTOilHeat

Repeating what's been said already, both are great boilers provided they are installed well. Both reasonably quiet and efficient.

That said, I'll say a piece as far as servicing the two. I have about the same amount of accounts with EK's as Buderus. I have more calls on average with the EK's but some that I have go back all the way to the beginning. (1986 I think?) The EK has specific parts as GW said, so don't just chose anyone to service as they may not have the parts readily available. Last on the EK, the tech support is AWESOME from my experience and that's huge.

The Buderus has more readily available parts and is easier to clean with less damageable parts internally. Cast iron triple pass is my go-to. Tech support is not as good as EK, not close, IMO.

Basically can't go wrong with either but find an installer who specializes in installation and service of whichever you choose. THIS is the most important factor to consider when choosing here.

CTOilHeat

PS.

I didn't comment on the indirect as the installer for either will point you in the right direction. It would be a different direction for both.

BoilerNewbie

Thank you so much

Roger

Good to see such positive discourse on two world class boilers!

I know our boilers (Energy Kinetics) are 30 year boilers and we do use nearly all industry standard parts. To get better efficiency, we need better operation of the whole system, so every boiler includes our Energy Manager control, which carries a lifetime protection plan. In a pinch, a few wires can be moved and the system can run safely without the control, too.

Every boiler should have a quarterback like the Energy Manager!

Using a plate heat exchanger for hot water (on a zone and with a scale stopper if really hard water) pays big energy savings dividends. The energy used to heat the boiler up is captured at the end of the call so energy is not left wasted in the boiler. You can use an indirect tank as an option, and efficiency will still be better than conventional boilers, although it will not be quite as good as with the plate heat exchanger.

We are of course Made in USA with specially formulated steel from local mills.

If you'd like to talk directly with our territory manager in your area, please message me, or call our offices at 800 323-2066.

Thank you, and happy heating!
Roger
President, Energy Kinetics, Inc.

CTOilHeat

BTW, This is exactly the kind of attention I'm' talking about from EK.

Way to be, Roger.

Roger

Very nice - thank you!

DanHolohan

We got EK last summer. I've been listening hard but I've yet to hear it run. Saving fuel and we're cozy so it must be running. I just can't hear it. Quite pleased.

Roger

Thank you, Dan - so pleased to help provide the warmth and comfort in your home!

lchmb

Installed many many EK's..will be putting one in my own home soon... Both are excellent, but sometime's customer service saves the day...

newagedawn

been a buderus fan and installed them for many years,never had any problems !!! just people loving their new oil bills!!! the only thing i wouldnt use is the logimatic control ( not a fan of these), most supply houses sell them with an aquasmart control or use an L7224U and make sure the near boiler piping is done correct and you'll have yrs of great service

bink

I only have experience as a home owner we had a Buderus G115/4 with indirect hot water tank installed 2 years ago. Works good , easy for cleaning ,but it is noisy somewhat noiser that my system that was replaced. We live right above the basement where the boiler is so we get the noise through the floor. I added some Roxul insulation in between the joists and had carpet and padding installed in the living area which has helped.
So just be aware of the noise.
I have had a sales person that installs the system 2000 come here to get a idea what they are like and appears to be a good system too.
The people on this forum are very knowledgeable about the tech aspects of these systems and the people are an excellent source of information and help.
Good luck.

BoilerNewbie

Roger, thank you. I sent you a message through this board.

rick in Alaska

I don't agree that the Buderus is easier to clean. With the new Frontier line of the Ek's, the whole front drops down and you just brush it out. I can get to all the heating surfaces with the brush.With the Buderus, since the passages are curved slightly up and down, and have cross over passages, you can not get to all the surfaces easily.
I like and use both boilers equally well, and a lot of the time, it has to do with the physical location it will go in. The Buderus needs a longer space to put it in, where the Ek can be put in a closet.
The Ek was always the most quiet boiler out there, and for the most part still is, but if you take a Buderus boiler with the direct vent Riello on it, then you have a good contender.
Also, just as an fyi, the Ek comes mostly plumbed, which saves on the labor cost.
Rick

BoilerNewbie

Thanks. I know the Arielle is the burner, but what do you mean by "direct vent"?

BornForDying

A lot of guys in my area don't like the EK. Let me be clear; it's not because there is anything wrong with the boiler itself. It's a bit different than the pin type, or triple pass, and some knuckleheads out there think anything different is junk.

We have a lot of buderus boilers in my area. I love working on them, even more so when there's a riello burner attached to it. That being said, we have a handful of EKs and we've never had a problem with those aside from regular maintenance.

Either boiler is a great choice, the decision may come down to your preferred installer.

rick in Alaska

Direct vent means it vents out the sidewall. The exhaust is pressurized by the burner, and pushed out, as opposed to a regular burner that uses chimney height to make a draft to help pull the exhaust out.
Rick

HVACNUT

From your square footage, I assume the Buderus model would be the G215
With a Riello and the System 2000 would be the EK2 which comes with a Carlin 99 burner.
I install and service both and the EK is a great boiler, efficient in design and with the flat plate heat exchanger for DHW. For me, at the end of the day it's still a steel boiler. Your service company must be knowledgeable with the EK manager.
My bias leans toward the Buderus with a BF Riello, and primary /secondary piping. With its thermostream design, you can't shock the CI. Ultimate efficiency comes from the 2107 Logamatic with ODR, and your service company MUST be experienced with this control.
The EK will fit in a closet.
The Buderus can be stacked on top of a Buderus horizontal indirect water heater.
IMO you really can't go wrong with either one, but with either one, you can't just go oil price shopping when getting a service agreement, the company MUST be familiar with the EK manager or the Buderus 2107.

chaean

Just a follow-up question on using Indirect water heater with EK1. Roger mentioned that indirect water heater can be used. We have a fairly new Amtrol water heater which we are hoping to reuse with the new EK1 installation (oil burner). How much less efficient would the system be with such installation vs Integrated system?

HVACNUT

You can definitely use your existing indirect WH. The draw backs are, you won't have DHW priority unless you wire in an external relay, which isn't a big deal. Also, the Heat Manager holds the zone valves closed until the boiler reaches (I believe) 130 degrees so you might lose some recovery time. Third, the Heat Manager senses return water temperature, so if the indirect is returning high temp water, it will cycle the burner off, again, slowing down the recovery.
What I would do is pipe and wire the indirect as though it was the EK tank, utilizing the flat plate heat exchanger. Just don't use the internal heat exchanger in the Amtrol.

rick in Alaska

Go to the System 2000 book and plumb it in the way they show it and you should be good to go. Or, call them about it. They have already figured all the details out.
Rick

Roger

Thank you for the additional questions and comments on using System 2000 with an indirect tank. We recommend piping the indirect tank as a zone, using a zone valve or zone circulator, so it should be very straightforward and not require additional parts.

You can turn on option switch 10 on the Energy Manager for up to 25 minutes of hot water priority. No additional relay is required.

Because System 2000 is low mass and only takes about 2 minutes to reach full output temperature, more heat goes into the hot water tank than heating the boiler itself. More energy is required to heat higher mass systems, so System 2000 catches up and passes those systems for faster recovery.

Purging heat into indirect tanks with coils is less effective because the boiler can only recover heat down to the tank temperature around the coil and the boiler finishes hotter. The plate heat exchanger heats the tank from the top down and purges the heat remaining in the boiler to heat the final reservoir of makeup water at the bottom of the storage tank. This cools the boiler off more and uses more of the heat that was put into the boiler during the hot water cycle. This may account for 5% to 10% savings in a typical home. Thermal purge to heating zones is still very effective, and even with an indirect tank, the efficiency exceeds high mass boilers which finish at 160F to 180F every time the hot water tank needs to be heated (which happens several times a day in an active home).

Roger

DanHolohan

I love it when the owner of a company answers a customer's question. It's classy.

Roger

Right back at you, Dan!

Robert O'Brien

I would recommend the EK flat plate setup. It's a system and that's where it shines, as a system. Why give up the added efficiency for over 6 months/year? The incremental cost isn't that much when compared to the potential savings.

DanHolohan

That's how we went. I'm delighted.

chaean

Thank you Roger and everyone for answering my question. Decided to go with the full integrated system per the recommendation above.

Roger

You're very welcome, Chaean - I trust you'll be delighted like Dan!

thomase00

I'm getting pretty close to pulling the trigger on a EK 90+ Resolute system. I also have an existing indirect tank (Mega-Stor). What is wrong with the idea of piping the existing indirect as though it was the EK tank, using the flat plate heat exchanger instead of the Mega-Stor's internal coil?

It would help if I understood more about how EK's DHW tank works, but I can't find the manuals and documentation available for download. Is it more like an aqua booster setup where the heat exchanger is outside the DHW tank (e.g. a boiler tankless coil). Other manufactures make this information available on their web sites...

Roger

Thank you for your question and for your interest in the 90+ Resolute.

Although my post from May 4 reviews the difference between an indirect tank with coil and the plate heat exchanger and high performance hot water tank, I did not go into detail on the System 2000 tank design. This is very different than a tankless coil design. The tank heats from the top down using an external plate heat exchanger and a special dip tube that prevents the tank from "tumbling" or stirring the water. Nearly the full heating capacity of the boiler can go toward making hot water. Cold or make-up water is drawn off the bottom of the tank and then heated water is pumped into the top of the tank (response is very fast because this is where the fixtures draw hot water from). The design of the dip tube and the shape of the top of the tank need to align to get the best performance; we don't test or publish the various designs of dip tubes that suit various tanks although our standard dip tube may work if the tank has appropriate trappings. The location of the tank thermostat also plays a role in effectively purging the boiler's remaining heat at the end of the thermostat call. I'd have to refamiliarize myself with the tappings on the Megastore to give you more direction - your installer can call our tech support hotline at 800 323-2066 to review with our tech team if you would like to explore further this combination further.

Here's a link to the manual for reference:
http://energykinetics.com/wp-content/documents/resolute/installer-manual-resolute-oil.pdf

Roger

DanHolohan

Saturday service. And from the owner! Gosh. Thanks, Roger.

Roger

You're welcome - just checking in!

Erin Holohan Haskell

Thanks, Roger!

Roger

You're welcome,too, Erin!

thomase00

Thanks for the response! I started another thread on the DHW board asking about this, but it looks like the action is here!

I've heard several times that this setup can purge more (or even all) of the heat from the boiler compared to an indirect. How is this possible if the boiler temperature has dropped below the temperature of the DHW tank (could still be around 140F which is quite a bit higher than room temperature)? In either case I'm imagining that heat transfer will stop once both temperatures are equal. Am I missing something special about the flat plate heat exchanger? I understand that the rate of heat transfer is faster than an indirect coil, but if that is the only difference, the indirect will eventually get the same amount of purged heat (it will just take longer).