Water hammer- several fixes and worse than ever

coophammer

Hi - I live in a co op in brooklyn NY.
So far the super and plumber on occasion have replaced my top valves, my main valves, and finally the radiator itself in both bedrooms that are suffering from steam hammer.

I'm on the 2nd floor of a 6 floor pre war.

The noise sounds like it's coming right from the radiator but possible right below.

The super and management keep saying things like "it's an old building" - the pipes are old, if we cut one to add something to it, we'll have to cut every pipe for every floor and it would cost tens of thousands"...

They don't seem to care because it's not them being woken up several times at night with a "CLANK CLANK CLANK!"

To make matters worse- two days ago we finally replaced the radiators as I mentioned, and now there was a new single "CLANK!" Every 30 minutes or so. I'm hoping it was just last night. I can't understand why this is happening now with the brand new radiators, to have added problems.

Please - I need someone to recommend a steam heat specialist in Brooklyn. Ask if you have any ideas for me please add it in here.

BobC

There may be a short horizontal pipe under the floor that has water trapped in it. have they tried raising the whole radiator up 1/2 to 3/4"? that might correct the slope in that short horizontal pipe. Be careful when trying to lift the radiator so the pipes don't get damaged, best to use a lever and a block.

Bob

Ironman

If it's a one pipe system, make sure the radiator valve is fully opened and that the radiator is sloped downward toward the valve.

What pressure is the system running at? It should NOT be above 2 psi.

Use the contractor locator on this site. There are several good steam men in your locale.

nicholas bonham-carter

Changing the radiators will have done nothing to make this problem go away.
The thing to remember in this case is that it worked silently, evenly, and economically when first installed, or the contractor would have been thrown into the river for incompetence!
Find out what has changed:
settling floors, changing the pipe slopes somewhere.
Dirty pigtail, or misadjusted pressuretrol, causing a slow return of condensate.
Recent boiler work may have introduced oile into the system.
After correcting these problems, you may see a reduction of 10-15% in fuel use, which everyone will like.--NBC

coophammer

@Ironman - apparently the 2 PSI doesn't apply to a co-op building of 90 units, and would apply to a house. It's 5 lbs of pressure for the whole building.

@nicholas bonham-carter apparently the small pipe that goes out from the heater to then turn down toward the floor below it, is "too small to hold water"... that's what the super is telling me.

Fred

The Empire State Building runs on 2PSI of pressure and I don't know of any pipe that is too small to hold water??? You are getting a run-around. 5 PSI is way too high.

ChrisJ

The super is full of beans.

@Fred @Dan Holohan would know for sure, but I thought the Empire State Building was some kind of hybrid vacuum system which allowed it to get away with only 2 pounds. I don't think it's a standard single pipe system.

Jamie Hall

The sad part of it is that your super probably believes what he's saying... which is completely wrong.

A small pipe is far more likely to hold water than a large one; the most persistent water hammer I have ever encountered was in a 1 inch pipe feeding one radiator. Sounded like the Anvil Chorus.

And 5 psi has probably ruined all the vents, not to mention backing up water into all sorts of places it was never meant to be.

Zman

You should do the super a favor and buy him one of Dan's books. A pocket full of steam problems and solutions might be a good start.
With one pipe steam, the pipes must be sized and pitched perfectly so that the liquid condensate returning to the boiler can slide past the steam headed to the radiator. If something gets a little out of whack, the two collide creating a whole lot of noise (you noticed).
The high pressure only makes it worse.

Fred

@ChrisJ , Seems I recall reading that the Empire State building is a two pipe system. I'm not sure about the details but this OP hasn't said if he has a one or two pipe system. From his comment about replacing his "top valve" I assumed it to be a two pipe system but only he can verify that?

Jamie Hall

One pipe or two pipe -- doesn't matter. You can run lower pressures with a true vapour system, but otherwise -- around 1.5 to 2 psi is all you will ever need, unless you are running fan coils or something of that sort.

EBEBRATT-Ed

#1 The steam pressure is too high, all the old buildings were designed to run at 2psi or less.
#2 Do the radiators have 1 pipe connection or two??
#3 The super knows nothing and the plumber may know less

"pipe is too small to hold any water"

You gotta be kidding me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They are clueless

Paul48

@coophammer
The super is wasting a lot of money running the system incorrectly. He might as well stand in the boiler room and burn $20 bills. Maybe those are your 20's he's burning? Having the system made right by a steam pro would pay dividends, year after year. It may not have to be done, all at once, but things surely need to be done.

coophammer

Thanks for all your comments. They are very helpful but the super doesn't seem to be agreeing with anything I'm telling him.

A plumber is coming in next week and I will mention everything and pray that he knows what he's doing (he's been hired by management. Perhaps I could call him beforehand and ask how his experience is with heat)...

coophammer

@Paul48 are you mainly referring to Running the system at 5PSI instead of 2PSI?

Like I wrote earlier, he said 2 psi is for a house and not a large co op building of 90 units on 6 floors.

Also to @EBEBRATT-Ed and others, it's a 1 pipe system as far as I know.

coophammer

Also here's a visual. This is a new radiator that was just installed, and besides the "clank clank clank" every 90 minutes or so, it also has a loud "bang" every 30 mins or so that didn't exist before. How is that even possible that there's a new loud sound...? Any ideas on that wild also be helpful, as the piping stayed the same, just the grey radiator piece changed.

coophammer

coophammer

And here is heater #2 in 2nd bedroom, also with a new radiator, new air valve, new main valve... and It actually began clanking as I was recording a video, so enjoy!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/l240m27kee9jco5/clank_s.mov?dl=0

Fred

There's your problem. That convector is pitched correctly but the pipe under is is pitched down from the vertical pipe. That allows water to pool in that elbow. As to the convector in your link, It looks like it has a slight pitch away from the valve end allowing the convector to hold a little water.
Fix those and you probably will eliminate the banging but, in spite of what your Landlord is telling you 5PSI is still way to high, house or Cooperative and is wasting energy and costing money

coophammer

@Fred if I'm understanding you correctly, you're talking about the elbow to the left (see image) but this heater is left closed, so if anything the steam is rising up, but stopping at the closed valve...

Fred

@coophammer , a closed valve will still allow some steam to enter into the radiator/convector. When that steam hits water it will bang. On a one pipe system, the valve should always be left fully open so that condensate can drain. (in this case it can't because of that pipe pitch). In any case, if you don't want to use that convector, buy a brass 1/4" plug, take the vent (on the right) off and put the plug in. That will prevent any air from escaping the convector and block steam from getting in but leave the valve fully open.

coophammer

@Fred thanks. What's interesting is in the other room, the air valve was set to "closed" , and water was spurting out of it. The super told me that the air valve has to be set to open, so the steam has somewhere to go, or water can spurt out. Perhaps he was wrong there, again.

Fred

coophammer said:

@Fred thanks. What's interesting is in the other room, the air valve was set to "closed" , and water was spurting out of it. The super told me that the air valve has to be set to open, so the steam has somewhere to go, or water can spurt out. Perhaps he was wrong there, again.

Yes, he is wrong. The water spiting is a combination of that convector being pitched slightly in the wrong direction (holding water) and that 5 PSI pressure making it very difficult for water to make it out and into the vertical pipe. Same with that valve that you have closed. At 5PSI it is going to leak steam into that elbow. The only way to prevent that is to plug the vent opening

Fred

@coophammer , when you take that vent off to put the plug in, make sure the boiler is not running! You don't want a steam burn.

BobC

Are those air vents heatimer varivalves? Convectors usually want to be vented slowly, it's not easy to adjust a varivalve accurately at the lower range. Also the varivalve does not have a float so it cant block water the way most air valves do.

I agree with the others that 5psi is much to high for a building with convectors. Were they trying to "fix" something else by playing with the pressure setting? All the horizontal piping to the convectors sb checked with a level to make sure it's sloped to let water flow back towards the boiler.

They should try lowering the pressure to see what effect it has on the system operation, it's easily reversed and doesn't cost anything.

Bob

coophammer

Thanks @Fred. Just to follow up on your suggestion- when steam shoots through the radiator, but not out the air valve (since it would be plugged) then in theory, no heat would emanate from the heater? That heater has stayed closed valve because it's right by our bed and way too hot, and smelly, (like rotten eggs for the first minute or so) but that's another story.

The building has some plumber they are planning to call in next week. I've suggested the providers of this site - but I may not be able to control who they bring in.

I wonder if they say "5 PSI is fine" and immediately I'll lose all hope...

neilc

show the super this thread,
read it to him,
the owner too

Fred

coophammer said:

Thanks @Fred. Just to follow up on your suggestion- when steam shoots through the radiator, but not out the air valve (since it would be plugged) then in theory, no heat would emanate from the heater? That heater has stayed closed valve because it's right by our bed and way too hot, and smelly, (like rotten eggs for the first minute or so) but that's another story.



The building has some plumber they are planning to call in next week. I've suggested the providers of this site - but I may not be able to control who they bring in.



I wonder if they say "5 PSI is fine" and immediately I'll lose all hope...

@coophammer with the plug in place of the vent, air won't be able to get out of that convector and consequently steam won't be able to get in so the convector will stay cool.
As to a plumber saying 5PSI is fine, if they do it will be because they don't know steam. Radiator vents can be ruined at anything much more than 3PSI and 2PSI is typically the max you want, lower is better. Contrary to what seems intuitive, steam slows down as pressure builds. There is no reason for a steam system to run at 5PSI. It uses more fuel to push the steam along, ruins vents, and causes the kinds of problems you are seeing (but the pipe/convector pitches need to be corrected as well. I also suspect they don't have enough venting on the mains. That will make the boiler run longer and cause pressure to build, along with an over-sized boiler (if the boiler is too large for the connected emitters, it will build pressure) Those convectors/radiators can only condense so much steam. Anything the boiler produces above and beyond that builds pressure and is wasted energy. You really don't need a plumber to fix the steam issues. You need a Steam Pro who really knows steam. If that happens to be the plumbing company the Coop uses, that's fine but given they haven't been able to fix these relatively simple issues, I have my doubts. I take that back, I don't have doubts, they are not the right people to fix your problems or this system.
If and when they get the pressure down and your radiator/pipes pitched correctly, if you need some heat in your bedroom, you can replace the plug with a Hoffman #41 vent. It vents slowly and should allow for reasonable heat but not overly hot. It won't help the smell, which I suspect is the result of some chemicals/cleaners they have added to the boiler water. Another big mistake people make and it, by itself can cause added pressure, foaming, an unstable water line and other issues. If they must use something they can add steamaster tablets but use them sparingly (don't add the amount the bottle advises you two) Depending on the amount of water capacity in that boiler, we may be able to advise you on the amount. If they have added other chemicals/cleaners, the boiler should be drained flushed out and filled with fresh water.

Jamie Hall

Good luck. It is clear that neither your super nor the plumber has a clue.

Where are you? I don't recall seeing, but if we know where you are we may be able to recommend someone who does have a clue.

Though you may have difficulty persuading your co-op board or super to hire someone else...

coophammer

@Jamie Hall I'm in Brooklyn. But like you said, they will probably hire who they have in mind already.

@Fred - I think that the image where you said the ell joint is pitched in a way that could hold water might be due to th angle I took the photo. I will upload a new one tomorrow and see if you still think that's the case.
But since you've given some detailed replies thus far - do you have any idea why there would be a *new* single "BANG" sound, if all that was changed was the condenser? Could a new condenser, with a main valve that is closed, (same as it was before) be creating a new loud sound?

Thanks everyone. Have a great evening.

Fred

@coophammer , If that pipe has some pitch, back to the valve (if it is level it can still hold a little water) then open the valve all the way and see if the bang goes away. As I stated earlier, on a single pipe system, the valve should always remain fully open (except when you need to disconnect the radiator/convector for a repair). If there is a correct pitch on that pipe, opening the valve should resolve the banging. Usually anytime a valve is closed, steam will leak past the valve (more so with 5PSI pressure)and into the radiator/convector but condensate can't get out so, in your case, that pipe is probably still holding water. Open the valve, see if the banging goes away and then close it again until you plug the vent opening (if you want no heat from that convector).

clammy

Could the issue be the valve they used not draining properly .I think replacing with a ball or gate and a union and maybe get a 45 or 90 in there to get the back pitch off of the pipe ,also a slower vent may help .I would also look into any main drips that may have been removed by a knucle head ,also lack of insulation on mains .I ve repaired large single pipes systems in the past and those single pipe wall convectors like dry steam ,proper pitch and slow venting they never fair well to knuckle heading and hi pressure .the one i repaired,i had removed the pressuretrol and a vaporstat installed re did the main venting and re connected mid line drips that where cut out and plugged also removed the f and t at the ends of the mains, cut the owners fuel bills by 50%and stopped the short cycling i also disconnected his new heat timer .Keep searching and maybe u will get some one to get it right but i would start w that valve and chk ing the main piping whereyour riser is coming from .Gots to investagate and be nosey peace and good luck clammy

coophammer

Just to update you all:

- The air vent on bedroom 2 has been replaced with a slower (lower pressure?) one
- The element in main bedroom with the loud banging, has been removed entirely (we never use heat in the room) ... and has been capped off. The plumber also tried lifting the piping a bit to help with any pitch issue.

I asked about things like the high PSI, but I was told that there are different types of steam, low/mid/high pressure steam, and that this old co-op building uses 5 PSI to reach the units farthest away from the boiler.

So far I am just crossing my fingers and hoping for the best.

Thanks for all your inputs!

Jamie Hall

"This old coop" should be using no more than 2 psi. The Empire State Building does just fine on 2 psi, and I dare say your coop is smaller. Whoever is telling you that it needs the higher pressure to reach the farther units does not understand steam heat.

ChrisJ

I bet that building could heat with 1/2 to 1 pound if someone that knew what they were doing spent some time on it. Maybe less!

Such a shame.

5 PSI..........
Titanic's center propeller was driven by a 420 ton 18,000 horsepower turbine that ran on 8 PSI of steam.

The inlet was 9 PSIA and the outlet was 1 PISA but the pressure difference was 8 PSIG. Only 3 PSIG more than people are claiming is needed to push steam into radiators in a small building.

Think about that for a bit, take as long as you like.

Sailah

I know the empire state building at 2 psi gets kicked around a lot, but I was at the empire state building last year and asked the steam engineers and Johnson Controls. They said it's closer to 15PSI at the branches, 70 coming into the building and 50 going up. I might be off by a little from recollection but it's Def not at 3 psi these days.

It's also 2 pipe.

ratio

Sailah said:

I might be off by a little from recollection but it's Def not at 3 psi these days.

Shhhhh! can't let that get out! You obviously must've mis-remembered.

Of course the Empire State Building runs on 2 lbs. (<- a funny.)

EBEBRATT-Ed

As @Dan Holohan describes in one of his books (LAOSH I think)
you find the pressure drop from the boiler to the farthest radiator for the supply piping. That's your pressure control cut in pressure.

KC_Jones

Tell them they should be prepared to replace vents often. At 5PSI they probably won't last that long. Also it's clear they don't know what they are doing with steam. Instead of fixing things they just remove emmiters.....

Jamie Hall

Sailah said:

I know the empire state building at 2 psi gets kicked around a lot, but I was at the empire state building last year and asked the steam engineers and Johnson Controls. They said it's closer to 15PSI at the branches, 70 coming into the building and 50 going up. I might be off by a little from recollection but it's Def not at 3 psi these days.



It's also 2 pipe.

I can see that as quite possible for the main distribution -- but to the emitters?

Sailah

> @Jamie Hall said:
> I know the empire state building at 2 psi gets kicked around a lot, but I was at the empire state building last year and asked the steam engineers and Johnson Controls. They said it's closer to 15PSI at the branches, 70 coming into the building and 50 going up. I might be off by a little from recollection but it's Def not at 3 psi these days.
>
>
>
> It's also 2 pipe.
>
> I can see that as quite possible for the main distribution -- but to the emitters?

Yes that's what they told me. They were running Sarco RTA-125 traps. I didn't check it on gauges but I was there with the guys that ran the system and made it a point to ask twice.

Most universities and large steam users are close to 15PSIG in my experience to keep under the fireman license.