Replacing main vent

Steamer1928

I have a 1-pipe system with a Utica PEG112BDE is about 25 years old. I notice that the only Main vent is on the return side near the boiler and it is a Dole No. 5. I have read on this forum that they aren't very much in terms of venting capacity. It also looks ancient. So I am in the market for a new one. The only problem is that it is located right next to a joist that would make it impossible to twist a Gorton on the pipe. Is there some sort of pipe adapter so that I could screw a collar on, sort of like the female end of a garden hose, so that I could hold the Gorton stationary? Any help would be appreciated. Also, any good steam guys in central NY that don't charge an arm and a leg?

Jamie Hall

Central New York? Like Syracuse/Rome/Utica area? Steam guys seem to be pretty thin on the ground around there, for some reason. I might add that a good steam guy is likely to charge... and be worth every penny.

That, however, doesn't solve your problem. What will solve your problem, though, is easy to do. When you take that Dole off, you should be able to screw a close nipple and a 90 elbow in there, pointing off to the side away from the joist. Then another nice nipple, and a 90 to point up, then screw your new vent into that (or into a nipple, if the vent has a female thread). Use tape.

Steamhead

You should be able to mount the Gorton with a few pipe nipples and fittings. But you'd need enough headroom. How about posting a pic of the vent location? Also, how long is the steam main and what pipe size? And is there just one steam main?

Fred

How long and what diameter is that Main? That will determine how much venting you should have. Also, if you have more that one main, each needs to be vented.
For the same money as a Gorton #2, you can get a Barnes and Jones Bigmouth. It vents twice the air as a Gorton #2 and is much better built (solid Brass construction). You can order them from the store here at Heatinghelp. They also come with a tail piece that mounts on your main and then the vent itself couples onto the tailpiece so you don't have to turn the entire vent. It does take a 3/4" tapping but I think @Sailah can ship with a 1/2 tail piece also..

Steamer1928

Right, I'm in Utica. Here are some pictures.

Steamhead

Looks like there are two steam mains. Do both of them end up at the return that has the vent?

Steamer1928

Not sure. The vent is there in the upper left corner. Thanks for any and all suggestions, guys. I have 7 radiators in the house. The main basically goes around the perimeter of the basement,.

Fred

That boiler isn't piped correctly. How well does it heat the house? It looks to me like one riser out of the right side of the boiler goes up to the Main but it also looks like the left riser out of the boiler goes up and ties into what I would assume is the dry return from the main that loops around the basement. Is that correct? If so, the boiler is putting steam into that one main from both directions. That vent is not venting anything as it would close as soon as the boiler starts to make steam.
There's no header and no real equalizer either.

JUGHNE

That is very interesting piping. For sure you need a new larger air vent. IIWM, I would remove the old vent add nipple & 90, then nipple & 90 again for new vent. The more distance & elbows will protect your new vent.

Does the steam main on the right side go all the away around the house and return to the boiler where the vent is on the left side?
Air vents close when steam gets to them.
Question to others here........is the return connected to the left side outlet of the boiler. Perhaps a new approach for an equalizer?? Or do we have counter flow on left and parallel on right. IMO the vent will see steam immediately and close. The rad vents are doing all the work.

How does this heat, fast, quiet etc?

Steamer1928

Yeah the pipe on the right goes all the way around and comes back into the left side, though you can see the one portion which comes around to a smaller wet inlet on the right. There is a bunch of vestigial coal equipment so I'm assuming that there was at one time a coal-fired boiler. The house heats up very quickly . The boiler runs for about 20 mins and then turns off. But there are some valves on the radiators that leak, on the knob side. Those valves all have some amount of corrosion and they are old. I'm thinking there is too much pressure in the system as a whole. The pressure is sometimes above 5 on the gauge. I've had the relief valve blow once since I've lived here. The whole wall back there was red with rust.

Fred

It is not piped correctly and that needs to be addressed. You have steam going two directions on that one main and that vent is doing absolutely nothing where it is located, with that steam riser out of the boiler tied into that dry return.

Steamer1928

Geez is that a big job?

Fred

Steamer1928 said:

Geez is that a big job?

It's a job you probably want to leave to a steam Pro. Where are you located? Maybe we can recommend someone who participates on this site and who we know will do the job correctly. You need a Header, an equalizer, those two risers out of the boiler need to tie into the Header and then the Main needs to tie into the header and after that, the equalizer needs to tie off of the end of the header. If you have the owner's manual for that boiler, look at the installation configuration. Those would be the Minimum specs for a proper installation. Your system/boiler pressure should never be over 2 PSI, max. The Empire State Building only uses 2 PSI. Most radiator vents will fail at constant pressures of 5 PSI or more.
Set the Cut-In (scale on front) on your Pressuretrol to .5 PSI, Take the cover off of the Pressuretrol and inside you will sell a white wheel. Set that to "1" facing the front of the Pressuretrol. If you can take the Pressuretrol off of the pigtail (looped pipe) clean the pigtail out. They get clogged. Use the hex fitting under the Pressuretrol to remove it from the pigtail. Get the piping corrected.

Steamhead

It is. But the system will work much better after that.

Here is the right way to pipe one of these boilers:

Steamhead

They are at least 24" above the waterline. And the job runs great. Can't argue with success, can we?

Steamhead

Well, when the customer says it never ran this well, with quick, even heat and no banging, I think that qualifies as "great".

Let's see pics of some steamers you've installed.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I have seen plenty of job that weren't piped "text book" and they worked fine, we all have.

Also have seen some that unless the piping isn't perfect they don't run well.

Not all things can be predicted. If it works leave it alone. Not every job has to be picked to death to the extreme.

ever try to fix a job that works pretty well and you end up causing a new problem?/ that happens too.

ChrisJ

I'd install new main vents, make sure the pigtail is clear and adjust the pressuretrol so it trips at around 1.5 - 2 PSI and see how it heats.

If the house heats fine, leave the piping alone.

It may not be perfect, but if it gets the job done I'd leave it until a new boiler is needed.


Please get a proper pipe running down to a few inches of the floor on that pressure relief. That's dangerous as is.

Steamer1928

Thank you all. Where would you put the new main vent(s) with what I have right now? At the midpoint of the big looped main? Probably not somthing I could do myself. I have a feeling I have some asbestos on certain stretches of the main. I see foil wrapping, so it's just a guess. Lovely, though

Fred

Those who have told you to leave that piping as is know full well they wouldn't do so on their own systems. It is absolutely not right to feed steam in two directions, through the main and backwards into the dry return. No vent is going to do what it is designed to do, get air out of the mains and minimize your fuel costs while doing so. Any vent is going to be hit by steam from one direction or the other and close before it does what it is suppose to do. This is a case where bad advise is worse than no advise at all.

ChrisJ

Fred said:

Those who have told you to leave that piping as is know full well they wouldn't do so on their own systems. It is absolutely not right to feed steam in two directions, through the main and backwards into the dry return. No vent is going to do what it is designed to do, get air out of the mains and minimize your fuel costs while doing so. Any vent is going to be hit by steam from one direction or the other and close before it does what it is suppose to do. This is a case where bad advise is worse than no advise at all.

Two things.

First, I could change the piping my self if I needed to. This makes it a lot cheaper for me than the average Joe.

Second, I don't know that. If it heated fast and evenly with a reasonable amount of pressure I'd likely do exactly as I said, leave it alone until I needed a boiler.

As far as rules, such as feeding steam in two directions is "absolutely not right" my own system doesn't follow many alleged rules such as your beloved 33% pickup factor.

Jamie Hall

Hatterasguy said:

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

I have seen plenty of job that weren't piped "text book" and they worked fine, we all have.

...

Take that statement with a pound of salt as the individual is simply masking what he does not know and/or does not care to know.


I get a good laugh out of the contractors who assail the homeowners here about miserable piping and that the boiler must be repiped. The homeowner responds that the boiler "works fine". That settles it ............correct?

Indeed that does settle it. The customer is, or should be, always right. it is fair -- and many of us do it, including myself -- to point out things which might be better. But -- and this applies to fields far beyond heating, but I won't go there -- if the customer likes it the way it is, so be it.

The only time that does not apply, at least in my book, is if there is a clear and present danger to the health and safety of someone other than the customer. Then there may be a duty to restrain or correct.

Fred

ChrisJ said:

Fred said:

Those who have told you to leave that piping as is know full well they wouldn't do so on their own systems. It is absolutely not right to feed steam in two directions, through the main and backwards into the dry return. No vent is going to do what it is designed to do, get air out of the mains and minimize your fuel costs while doing so. Any vent is going to be hit by steam from one direction or the other and close before it does what it is suppose to do. This is a case where bad advise is worse than no advise at all.

Two things.

First, I could change the piping my self if I needed to. This makes it a lot cheaper for me than the average Joe.

Second, I don't know that. If it heated fast and evenly with a reasonable amount of pressure I'd likely do exactly as I said, leave it alone until I needed a boiler.

As far as rules, such as feeding steam in two directions is "absolutely not right" my own system doesn't follow many alleged rules such as your beloved 33% pickup factor.

If you were to leave your piping the way this one is configured, no one on this site would listen to anything you had to say about steam. Furthermore, you haven't done anything extraordinary on your system that defies the basic rules of a single pipe steam installation. So you use less than a 33% pick-up factor, big deal. That by itself doesn't make your system the gold standard. And BTW, most of us could start out with that 33% pick-up factor and spend more money to down size the boiler using our homes as a "Lab" if we so desired. You knew if it didn't work you could put the original parts back on the boiler.

ChrisJ

Fred said:

ChrisJ said:

Fred said:

Those who have told you to leave that piping as is know full well they wouldn't do so on their own systems. It is absolutely not right to feed steam in two directions, through the main and backwards into the dry return. No vent is going to do what it is designed to do, get air out of the mains and minimize your fuel costs while doing so. Any vent is going to be hit by steam from one direction or the other and close before it does what it is suppose to do. This is a case where bad advise is worse than no advise at all.

Two things.

First, I could change the piping my self if I needed to. This makes it a lot cheaper for me than the average Joe.

Second, I don't know that. If it heated fast and evenly with a reasonable amount of pressure I'd likely do exactly as I said, leave it alone until I needed a boiler.

As far as rules, such as feeding steam in two directions is "absolutely not right" my own system doesn't follow many alleged rules such as your beloved 33% pickup factor.

If you were to leave your piping the way this one is configured, no one on this site would listen to anything you had to say about steam. Furthermore, you haven't done anything extraordinary on your system that defies the basic rules of a single pipe steam installation. So you use less than a 33% pick-up factor, big deal. That by itself doesn't make your system the gold standard. And BTW, most of us could start out with that 33% pick-up factor and spend more money to down size the boiler using our homes as a "Lab" if we so desired. You knew if it didn't work you could put the original parts back on the boiler.

10% pickup factor.

All radiators get steam to the pipes within a few seconds of
each other.

Steam to the end of mains in under 70 seconds on cold days.

Peak operating pressure of 1" WC on really long recoveries, as low as 0.25" during normal operation. 0.25-0.50" is typical.

It may not be the gold standard, but it's pretty darn good.

When your system heats all of the radiators with only an eighth of an ounce, you let me know. Until then, watch what you say about my system.

Jamie Hall

@Hatterasguy -- this little debate here between you and I is the tip of a very fundamental philosophical and political and ethical iceberg. And as such, perhaps we should leave it be before it sinks the Titanic...

Fred

@ChrisJ when you inherit a boiler that is well over sized, lasts for 34 years and still going strong, is over twice the size of your system, heats all radiators hot in about two minutes at two ounces of pressure, then you have accomplished something. I don't much see a whole lot of value add running at 1" water column as opposed to a few ounces. And I certainly don't see doing so by paying for a larger boiler and then buying parts to make it smaller to get to your numbers. That's my take on itbut as Jamie says "Whatever floats your boat". Sorry for paraphrasing your comment @Jamie Hall

ChrisJ

Fred said:

@ChrisJ when you inherit a boiler that is well over sized, lasts for 34 years and still going strong, is over twice the size of your system, heats all radiators hot in about two minutes at two ounces of pressure, then you have accomplished something. I don't much see a whole lot of value add running at 1" water column as opposed to a few ounces. And I certainly don't see doing so by paying for a larger boiler and then buying parts to make it smaller to get to your numbers. That's my take on itbut as Jamie says "Whatever floats your boat". Sorry for paraphrasing your comment @Jamie Hall

I picked out and installed mine, you inherited yours, and yet you accomplished something and I didn't?

@Hatterasguy help me out here, I must be missing something.

Fred

ChrisJ said:

Fred said:

@ChrisJ when you inherit a boiler that is well over sized, lasts for 34 years and still going strong, is over twice the size of your system, heats all radiators hot in about two minutes at two ounces of pressure, then you have accomplished something. I don't much see a whole lot of value add running at 1" water column as opposed to a few ounces. And I certainly don't see doing so by paying for a larger boiler and then buying parts to make it smaller to get to your numbers. That's my take on itbut as Jamie says "Whatever floats your boat". Sorry for paraphrasing your comment @Jamie Hall

I picked out and installed mine, you inherited yours, and yet you accomplished something and I didn't?

@Hatterasguy help me out here, I must be missing something.

Why are you asking @Hatterasguy to help you out here? You installed new and made it work. I took what I had to work with and made it work. The piping and pickup factor that you keep whining about and even an over-sized boiler can be made to perform very well. Let it go and focus on advising a Poster as best we can. If he/she knows their problems and chose to live with them, that's OK but if they want to know something isn't right, that's a good thing to. The final decision to fix it or not is always their decision but at least they now know.
At the end of the day, this isn't about your system or mine, it's about the OP who, in this case, needs to understand why his main venting isn't working. It can't because steam is hitting it before it can vent any air. To suggest otherwise isn't educating the OP.

Steamhead

Fred said:

At the end of the day, this isn't about your system or mine, it's about the OP who, in this case, needs to understand why his main venting isn't working. It can't because steam is hitting it before it can vent any air. To suggest otherwise isn't educating the OP.

Right. That boiler needs to be repiped and the vent situation straightened out. After the piping changes, you can use a much bigger vent in that location.

This type of boiler is quite sensitive to improper piping. A drop header is over and above what the manufacturer specifies, but its configuration helps dry out the steam and it's easier to put together. Here's another one, where we rebuilt such a drop header as part of an addition:

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/151513/lets-start-the-new-wall-off-properly