Paul System??

Dan Foley

A friend sent this picture to me. I've never seen one quite like this. A Paul valve on a two-pipe vapor radiator? Any ideas?

DanHolohan

Yes. That's what we have at General Society. Our Paul vents are gone now (but for one), but the pipes remain. It works as a two-pipe, air-vent system these days.

Dan Foley

Thanks, Dan.

DanHolohan

At your service, my friend!

Steamhead

It looks like the discharge from that Paul vent is tapped into the top of a Broomell return elbow, after the water seal. Maybe that rad was slow to heat and they thought this would help?

JohnNY

Frank, to me, the picture suggests they vented or vacuum-pumped the returns. Instead of using a vacuum pump to a small-diameter vent line. Whaaat?

DanHolohan

It's a variation but would give the same effect. The air will move across the Broomell's vent hole.

Steamhead

And don't forget, the original Broomell installations vented the dry return into the chimney, using the draft to pull a slight vacuum on the returns.

DanHolohan

Yes

AMservices

I hear there's a new, better version of that system, that doesn't use the expensive Paul vents.
It can be added to any central steam heating system
The vacuum boost system

keysjesse

Where can I get an inexpensive vacuum pump?

EBEBRATT-Ed

Inexpensive and vacuum pump doesn't compute

AMservices

The vacuum pumps in the picture are oil free, medical grad pumps made by https://www.airtechusa.com/products-solutions/products/hp-dry-piston/

Before you invest, how do you plan to use a vacuum pump?
How it connects to a steam system will make or break everything.

jumper

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

Inexpensive and vacuum pump doesn't compute

Venturi eductors & ejectors don't break banks.

The Steam Whisperer

Hang that vacuum connection on the same side as the supply tends to be problematic. The steam fills that end of the radiator and then that's it..... at least from my experience with two pip vacuum systems.

AMservices

> @The Steam Whisperer said:
> Hang that vacuum connection on the same side as the supply tends to be problematic. The steam fills that end of the radiator and then that's it..... at least from my experience with two pip vacuum systems.

In my pic with the vacuum line connected to the radiator, it's not connected to the supply side. That is a 2 pipe, air vented system. It is confusing from that picture.

Pumpguy

@keysjesse is working on a one pipe Paul airline system where a new boiler was installed, and the old vacuum pump was discarded. He does not know what brand or type of vacuum pump it was.

He is looking for an inexpensive and easily installed vacuum pump to restore the Paul system to operate as originally designed.

I believe the type of vacuum pump @IgorZhadanovsky uses should fill the bill, but don't know the specifics.

Can anyone provide this information?

DanHolohan

You can reach Igor at izhadano@gmail.com

AMservices

> @Jim_R said:
> > @AMservices said:
> > I hear there's a new, better version of that system, that doesn't use the expensive Paul vents.
> > It can be added to any central steam heating system
> > The vacuum boost system
>
> I don't think I've ever seen rubber chair tips on a radiator before .. or even read about feet made for a bigger footprint once they start gouging into the floor after all that dead weight , perhaps 2 feet sitting on the same pine tongue and groove .. like the thiner 2 1/4" widths . But it's interesting ..
> .. staying on subject are they considered insulators for isolating the radiator or because the metal ingredients mixed in the flooring would affect any electrical/gounding etc readings that I'm sure that is hooked up or part of the system ?
> As I was writing I started thinking , I expanded my original comment based just on variables I somewhat recall and/or have experience with .. So .. the questions are mostly legit..i haven't reread .. as expanding is progression and I can't expand the thought and questions by erasing the catalyst..
> Jim

In my pictures, I'm showing a vacuum line system that is connected to a mechanical vacuum pump, Very similar to the pauls system.
I used 3/8" insulated copper as vacuum line to the radiators, then those connect to a main vacuum line that a vacuum pump pulls air out of the system.
When there is a call for heat the vacuum pump and the boiler turn on together. The air is quickly evacuated from the system Making a mechanically induced vacuum.
A cold boiler will start producing steam in less than 5 minutes under 8-10 HG.
Steam is quickly pulled through the mains Into the radiators.
Ball valves are on all of the radiators so to balance the air being pulled out and slow the steam coming in.
While the pump is on, I can heat any radiator in the system first or last.
When burner turns off, The vacuum pump turns off and the collapsing steam create a naturally induced vacuum.
Under a vacuum the boiling point of water is lowered. so for sys 20-30 minutes after burner turns off, there's steam coming out of the boiler.
But the beautiful thing is, steam isn't going to a radiator in the room with the satisfied thermostat, it finding a colder room, with a colder radiator that it can unload In.
You can always rely on steam to find the lowest point of pressure.
Where ever temperatures are lower, steam will be condensing faster, so the vacuum will be stronger making the cold spots the lowest point of pressure and any steam in the system, even steam in other radiators can move to where its needed most, via steam main and the common vacuum line.

Having a common (always open) line that connects all the radiators, Is equalizing the pressure drop between all of the radiators in the system.
Having 1 common line where all the air is vented gives you control over the lowest point of pressure.

Paul system was different. He was using a steam ejector and had mini steam traps on vacuum line https://www.statesupply.com/hk1010

@izhadano worked with me on this project and over the past 3 years, we have been looking for people interested In his vacuum retrofit.
In 3 years we have found 2 that gave us the chance to improve there steam systems.

Vacuum lines turn a single pipe steam system, into a 2 pipe vapor vacuum at a fraction of the cost.
Naturally balancing, no hissing air vents blowing boiler air into the room. quite, comfortable heat from a simple system with almost no moving parts and using next to nothing for electricity.

So if anyone is interested in upgrading there 1 pipe steam system, looking to restore a existing steam system or has questions about how to go about these things, I'm happy to answer questions.

@Jim_R
I hope something in there answered a question for you.

PMJ

"But the beautiful thing is, steam isn't going to a radiator in the room with the satisfied thermostat, it finding a colder room, with a colder radiator that it can unload In.
You can always rely on steam to find the lowest point of pressure.
Where ever temperatures are lower, steam will be condensing faster, so the vacuum will be stronger making the cold spots the lowest point of pressure and any steam in the system, even steam in other radiators can move to where its needed most, via steam main and the common vacuum line"

This is also true in any two pipe system with just natural vacuum. All of the expense and complication with pumps will indeed produce the biggest effect. However, I have found that the same effect is actually quite dramatic at only 4-6 in HG which is easily achieved between cycles naturally.

AMservices

It's not complicated adding a pump to a heating system.
If somebody is fortunate enough to have a 2 pipe heating system, then having it work as a vapor vacuum system is easily achieved.
If somebody has a one pipe steam system And wants it to work as a 2 pipe steam system, Then Installing airlines to vent the system through a Common line is the way to go.

Is a vacuum pump necessary?
No. Steam can push the air out through the main vent line and the condensing steam will make a vacuum in the dry return/condenser line.

Does a vacuum pump make it work better?
Yes. You can set a post and pre purge with the vacuum pump to ensure that you're starting under a good vacuum And that you can pull what remaining heat is left in the boiler into the system.

In the shoulder seasons when your boiler can be on standby for days at a time, The boiler sees several cold starts. Having a vacuum pump that pre charge the system Will help reduce the pick up losses during cold starts.
Vacuum pumps give you impressive control over How fast you can heat the system and what radiators You want to heat 1st.

For example
Let's say the thermostat controlling the boiler is located in the room with the farthest radiator from the boiler. If I heat that room first, I know the steam main lines are full of steam. when the system turns off, steam isn't favoring the room with the thermostat. That room has the hottest air temperature. Steam movies to the colder radiators in the colder rooms.
You can now keep heating with the burner off.


When done right, Vacuum pumps add speed and control to a steam system, And give ensurance that You will be starting the system under a vacuum and pulling as much heat out of the boiler at the end of the Heating cycle as you can.

PMJ

No question that vacuum pumps provide more options and will make a vacuum system run better. It also seems to me that a one pipe system with all vent lines installed and run to a common location would offer many more control options than a two pipe system as individual lines could be shut off to prevent individual rads from filling at all - and on some schedule. This is not possible with 2 pipe systems where all vent lines are hard piped together.

With regard to cold starts in shoulder seasons what @amservices says is true. In my experience though this kind of start is a very small percentage of the total. During times you actually need heat, at 3cph and no overshooting there are no starts without vacuum in a natural system. Clearly pumps will enhance the performance. In two pipe, however, the switch to natural vacuum is so easy and the results so significant I think it a good starting place for anyone interested. I have found that even a little vacuum is way better than no vacuum.