Water softener and steam boiler

LionA29

I've been noticing some scaling in my appliances and shower glass doors and was really contemplating on adding a water softener.
But before I make a decision, I would like to get some Pros and other HO input on this. I've been reading that soften water is bad for the boiler causing it to rust.
So, do I run a dedicated fresh water line bypassing the softener to the steam boiler and outdoor faucet?
By doing that, my boiler fill will no longer be " hot".
Thanks in advance!
Lionel

Jamie Hall

Having the boiler feed 'hot" is irrelevant -- you shouldn't be adding more than two or three gallons per month anyway.

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

Having the boiler feed 'hot" is irrelevant -- you shouldn't be adding more than two or three gallons per month anyway.

Actually, depending on the temperature I believe most if not all auto-fills say to never use hot water as it can damage them.

Technically.

JohnNY

ChrisJ said:

Jamie Hall said:

Having the boiler feed 'hot" is irrelevant -- you shouldn't be adding more than two or three gallons per month anyway.

Actually, depending on the temperature I believe most if not all auto-fills say to never use hot water as it can damage them.

Technically.

They do. And when I called McD-Miller, two different tech guys said they have no idea why the paperwork says that and that "surely, it makes sense to fill the boiler with hot water rather than cold water."

How about that?

ChrisJ

JohnNY said:

ChrisJ said:

Jamie Hall said:

Having the boiler feed 'hot" is irrelevant -- you shouldn't be adding more than two or three gallons per month anyway.

Actually, depending on the temperature I believe most if not all auto-fills say to never use hot water as it can damage them.

Technically.

They do. And when I called McD-Miller, two different tech guys said they have no idea why the paperwork says that and that "surely, it makes sense to fill the boiler with hot water rather than cold water."

How about that?

I thought it was because either the seals, or the solenoid were sensitive to it?

I swear I read that somewhere or someone told me it.

LionA29

@Jamie Hall I thought should the boiler needs water if hot, by adding cold water will shock the cast iron and probably cause it to crack?
@ChrisJ I do not have an auto feed and it really don't use any water. So no water is usually added except with I drained the bottom legs.

LionA29

http://www.wawnc.org/cm/downloads/WAWNC_AWQR_2015.pdf
I found the Water report.

Jamie Hall

Thermal shock might be a problem -- would be -- if you added a whole lot of water all at once. A gallon now and then? No problem. To make doubly sure though, the water should be added to the wet return, not directly to the boiler.

Fred

@Larry, what's your take on @LionA29 's water report. Chlorides look high to me. Anything else he should be concerned about as it relates to his steam boiler?
http://www.wawnc.org/cm/downloads/WAWNC_AWQR_2015.pdf

LionA29

@Jamie Hall is that approve?

LionA29

Thanks @Fred!

Fred

No problem. BTW, doesn't your supply water go into the boiler down at the wet return before the Hartford loop? Does it actually go directly into the boiler? Typically the fresh water is added somewhere in the wet return just before the boiler so that it is tempered before going into the boiler. Hot water is Ok but if it actually goes into the wet return, cold water will be tempered and fine going into a hot boiler.

LionA29

@Fred the water supply goes to the lower drain port with the long drain pipe and valve. Please see attached pic. Thanks!

RomanGK_26986764589

I have water softener but I also have a bypass switch on it in case I need an non softened water. I'm a HO and I'm still not sure whether to use softened water or not. There are conflicting reports, some say it is beneficial while others say it is detrimental to the steam boiler's life.

ColinFarquhar

I can't say I've every heard of someone saying to use hard water in a boiler... At work, our makeup FW for our 500HP plant comes through our softeners.

LionA29

So I've manage to do some testing of the Supply Water entering the boiler and Water inside the boiler for Hardness.
Supply Water - 8 Grains
Boiler water - 2 Grains
Pics attached.
Thanks

Fred

@LionA29 , that now leads to the next question. Have most of the minerals in the water, from 8 grains down to 2 grains attached themselves to the walls/floor of the boiler as scale? I'm not sure about the chemistry between hard and soft water and what the Pros and Cons of each might be but I suspect the suspended solids attach to the interior of the boiler. They don't disappear.

Rich_L

@ Fred: the minerals most likely have been removed by the softener. My guess!
@LionA29: I take care of a steam boiler in a 12 plex. Owner wanted to know if we should be doing any type of treatment for the boiler water. I had my chemical guy stop by and he said that the best thing we could do for that small boiler (750,000 BTUH) was use softened water for the makeup. We installed a softener just for the boiler.

LionA29

@Fred interesting right! Why the reduction?
Is it because it was boiled out? Is it possible?
Thanks

LionA29

@Rich L. Thank you for your comments. I DO NOT have a softener as yet, but I'm trying to figure out if the softener will be good or bad for the boiler. I do see that you are running yours with a softener which sounds great.

Fred

Rich_L said:

@ Fred: the minerals most likely have been removed by the softener. My guess!
@LionA29: I take care of a steam boiler in a 12 plex. Owner wanted to know if we should be doing any type of treatment for the boiler water. I had my chemical guy stop by and he said that the best thing we could do for that small boiler (750,000 BTUH) was use softened water for the makeup. We installed a softener just for the boiler.

@Rich_L " He doesn't have a water softener yet.
@LionA29 I don't think you can boil the minerals out. They are typically left behind as deposits, like you see around a pan of water when you boil it.

LionA29

@Fred
Sounds like a camera inspection will detect if I'm running a " salt pot"

Fred

LionA29 said:

@Fred

Sounds like a camera inspection will detect if I'm running a " salt pot"

There will always be some deposits but it should be minimal. A camera will show what is above the water line but not what is on the floor of the boiler, unless you drain the boiler.

RomanGK_26986764589

But can the softener increase the level of chlorides since calcium ions are replaced with sodium through the backwash process using salt?

hot_rod

While you would not want to fill or maintain any hydronic or steam system with hard water, softened water also has some drawbacks. Mainly you raise the conductivity of the water through the ion exchange

The best treatment for water that does not meet the boilers requirement is to demineralization the water. Similar to softening but no brine involved. Some good basics on water for Hydronics here


Search Idronics 18

Solid_Fuel_Man

This in what I got out of an electric process boiler fed with unconditioned municipal water. 12 grains hardness, calcium carbonate, I was told this boiler was cleaned weekly with "something". Got 10lbs of this stuff out all below the wayer line.

Fred

WOW!

LionA29

@Solid_Fuel_Man ...What in the world is that?
It really looks like Fudge

LionA29

@EzzyT @gerry gill
Whst do you think the effects would be of softened water in steam boiler?
Thanks

ChrisJ

@LionA29 if I were you, I'd call Rhomar and talk to them about using a softener with the boiler and it's effects.

Also, discuss some water treatment with them while you're at it.

IMO, they're some of the best when it comes to this.

http://www.rhomarwater.com/products/catalog/product-type/steam-treatment/

hot_rod

The key is to protect all the metals in a steam or hydronic system. Getting a film or coating on them is important.
With O2 in the fill water you will get some oxidization to "rust" the ferrous surfaces. Until the O2 is consumed in that process.

Additionally treatment chemicals add film providers..

Steam guys prefer a bit more alkalinity to protect the iron.

The goal is to keep that water quality in the best range.

Excessive fill water or excessive O2 ingress need to be monitored and addressed, as it will increase corrosion, and scaling potential.

So my suggestion is to test your fill water, fix it if it is out of the boiler manufacturers spec, maintain and check fluid quality occasionally to know if fill water or excessive O2 is entering.

Fred

I believe @LionA29 spoke with WM tech support this morning and they told him "No" to using softened water in their boilers. I have since spoken to Burnham Tech support and they told me that they want a fresh water line run to their boilers that bypasses the water softener. No softened water.

LionA29

I called Weil McLain and I got " you don't want to feed a boiler softened water".

LionA29

@Fred @ChrisJ
I spoke also to Rhomar's chemist Jeffrey and he was very patient. He said the boiler's manufacturers do recommend around 8 grains and that's normal but with the issues I'm having with the scaling it can become a problem later on. Also recommended using Deionized water.
He suggested using Rust inhibitor.So i ask how to treat the hardwater for the boiler? There is a Boiler Pro 903 and Hydro Steam 9510 that should clean the scales out before using the Boiler Pro.
Boiler Pro can be used as a maintenance additive.

hot_rod

LionA29 said:

I called Weil McLain and I got " you don't want to feed a boiler softened water".

True!

Deionized or demineralized water is what you want, this graphic shows the difference between softened and demineralized water.

RomanGK_26986764589

Or one could use reverse osmosis (RO) water to feed the boiler if possible.

hot_rod

RomanGK_26986764589 said:

Or one could use reverse osmosis (RO) water to feed the boiler if possible.

RO would be similar to demineralized but slow and wasteful to produce. 2-3 gallons down the drain to produce 1 gallon of RO water.

Demineralizing cleans all the water flowing through it and at a reasonable flow rate.

LionA29

https://heatinghelp.com/blog/nature-of-the-new-steam-beast/
When testing makeup water, the following are a good rule of thumb:

Chlorides should be less than 30 mg/L (ppm)
Hardness (as CaCo3) should be less than 100 mg/L (ppm)
pH should be between 9.0 and 12.0

RomanGK_26986764589

@LionA29 I checked my area water report and they don't even list chlorides there.

LionA29

@RomanGK_26986764589 where are you located?

RomanGK_26986764589

@LionA29 I live in NJ. According to American Water, my water is coming from the Raritan system. Here's the link, maybe I am simply not seeing it and you have better eyes. My zip is 08812.

https://amwater.com/njaw/water-quality/water-quality-reports#zip=08812&distance=5&latitude=40.597309&longitude=-74.478818&currentpage=1