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HTP UFT installers/owners. Heads up check your return temp sensor location
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Bill751
Member Posts: 119
I just unboxed my UFT-100 last night and figured I would look it over to make sure everything was in order and also familiarize myself with its design. I could not understand why the return temp sensor was located where it was. I stated that on another thread I have going. Thankfully Rob saved me a lot of head scratching and posted a pic showing the location in the HTP brochure, which also is where Robs sensor is located in his UFT80 I cannot imagine any reason why HTP would have moved the sensor from where it was in the brochure, which places it in the flow stream for both the top and bottom return, to now being in the flow stream for only the bottom return. If anyone knows anything about this please correct me. As of now I have to logically assume the person at HTP who assembled mine and possibly others placed the sensor in the wrong location during assembly. Mixed up locations with the pressure sensor.
HTP brochure image
Actual pic of my UFT
HTP brochure image
Actual pic of my UFT
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Comments
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Those are both ch return sensors. There is not a system pressure sensor in the parts list. There is a lwco by the top of the HX.
Are both of yours HTP brand, or Westinghouse?0 -
Gordy, mine is an HTP and the other pic is from an HTP brochure.
I can assure you that is for system pressure. Maybe I should not have used the term "sensor" though since it's not an electronic gauge.
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The white cylinder at the bottom of the boiler case with the gray coiled hose attached is the "CH System Pressure" gauge. It's in a ridiculous spot on that boiler.. you literally have to crawl under the boiler to see it. It should be inserted into the vertical section of the return pipe as indicated by the top photo not the horizontal section as it is on Bill's boiler.
The blue wire sensor is the "CH Return Sensor" and should be installed in the vertical pipe that runs back to the HX so no matter if you use the upper or lower boiler return connection the return water temp is supplied to the main control board.
Someone at HTP here or more likely in S.Korea reversed the placement of the two devices on the CH return pipe.0 -
Also, even if the pressure gauge was an analog temp gauge ( but it's not) the placement of the electronic sensor on my boiler would still make no sense. The boiler has a top supply and return and a bottom supply and return. The incorrect placement of the digital sensor means the boiler control is only getting a correct reading when using the bottom supply/ return. if you're piped top supply/return, then the sensor is not in the flow path. The HTP brochure sensor location places the sensor in the flow path for both top and bottom return configurations. which makes sense. my location doesn't make sense to me. looks like an assembly error.0
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Maybe it was their first day on the job or who knows what. But there very well may be other UFT's out there with the same mix up. So I figured people may want to give theirs a look.
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Funny that does not come up on the parts list.
Seems they are same ports switch them.
When you make thousands of widgets something is bound to happen.
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I just took a look. Page 77 item 23.Gordy said:Funny that does not come up on the parts list.
Seems they are same ports switch them.
When you make thousands of widgets something is bound to happen.
Yes true, not a big deal to switch them, providing you know they need switched. If it happened once, it's probably happened other times. I doubt everyone is going to look their boiler over so closely and catch the mistake. I thought others would like to be aware of the possibility rather than their system control getting an incorrect reading for the life of the boiler should they have the same issue mine does.0 -
^ yeah, the CH Pressure Gauge (# 23) is listed with the cabinet parts on the previous page..
Guess at the factory the brain said one thing and the hands did something else.
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Ah ha!0
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They recently updated the manual for the UFT series...mine is from 6/2/2016. Looks like yours is from this month!
I've noticed several changes from the previous version that was about 6 mo older.
There are still several errors in the updated version too...0 -
I see in the downloaded copy I have it's page 78. My paper copy is the 6/2/2016 revision.0
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I spoke with HTP support in Dec about firmware issues... the latest firmware for the display board and controller board were released early summer 2016- that's when they updated the manual (6/2/2016 revision) last summer to reflect the new features.
Don't know what thev'e changed in the Jan 2017 revision of the manual?0 -
FWIW- as of Dec 2016 the the current Control Board SW rev. is 0011, and the Display Board SW is 0006.
Don't know if they updated the firmware since Dec 2016, but the summer 2016 update solved the issues I had.
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What's the best way to tell if my firmware has the summer 2016 update?NY_Rob said:FWIW- as of Dec 2016 the the current Control Board SW rev. is 0011, and the Display Board SW is 0006.
Don't know if they updated the firmware since Dec 2016, but the summer 2016 update solved the issues I had.0 -
Tell me do you two really think that the rwt reading would be that different from those two locations? Because I don't. Not enough to create a noticeable issue in boiler response. Not with the control features of the uft.0
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You very well could be right. I can't say it's effect. But what I can say is when I'm working on the $40,000,000 natural gas compressor stations we build, things get placed where they were designed to be placed and where it makes sense to place them. if someone were to make a mistake, we don't say oh well close enough. I see no reason why I would want to ignore a simple fix and not have the sensor in the flow as it was designed. To me that's being lazy, and willfully not caring where you put it during a build would be not taking pride in your work.Gordy said:Tell me do you two really think that the rwt reading would be that different from those two locations? Because I don't. Not enough to create a noticeable issue in boiler response. Not with the control features of the uft.
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I should add that it makes no difference to me if it's 40 mil, the cost of my boiler or something $5. I want things done right, simple as that. I'm sure many others who shell out to have a mod con installed would agree. I didn't know The wall was about cutting corners or not caring if things were used / placed / installed as designed. I was under the impression this place was about the complete opposite. Maybe it makes little difference placed incorrectly, but it certainly is not 100% accurate. and again, no reason not to fix it.0
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I never said it was close enough, or should not be corrected. Nor that one should not bring it to HTP's attention with a phone call, email with supporting evidence this has happened.
My point of asking the question was that if no one noticed the defect that it would probably not ever be noticed by the boiler not responding appropriately. Would probably be that way forever. Especially if piped from the bottom.
So it is imperative that you contact HTP so at the very least they can send out a technical bulletin, and trace down possible other units on the shelf to see if this is a one in a thousand, or what ever.
Not all manufactures lurk here so I hope you correspond with HTP.0 -
Sorry If I was taking it the wrong way Gordy. Your phrasing gave me that impression.
Yes I agree. if it was bottom piped then it's fine. if it was top piped I don't believe it would cause a major issue no. But would it have any impact over the life of the boiler as far as efficiency due to inaccurate readings? I don't know. if so, would that add up to $5, $20, $100 or ??? over the boiler lifetime? I have no idea and don't know enough about the boilers control to answer that, nor how far off the readings may be. I didn't feel it was even worth speculating what it's affects may or may not be, but rather to just fix it and let others know they may have the same issue.0 -
Please Call HTP so they can nip it in the Butt. They are a reputable company. Just like your gas compressor builds. If no one knows something was installed wrong they can not correct it.
Thanks for sharing your discovery on the wall. However there are many that may get their hands on a uft with this issue that do not come here.0 -
Will do. I'll get in touch with them.0
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Look at the LCD display when you power up the boiler and record the codes displayed. In the install manual it describes the sequence and which components the codes are related to.Bill751 said:What's the best way to tell if my firmware has the summer 2016 update?
As of Dec 2016 the the current Control Board FW rev. is 0011, and the Display Board FW is 0006.
If you find you don't have issues with whatever FW your boiler came with... you don't need to do anything.
My boiler even though it was special ordered by my local supply house and came directly from HTP, it had FW that was at least two revisions behind what was current before the summer 2016 update.
I was having a problem where if the boiler was firing for over 30min or so the SWT setpoint would just suddenly shoot up to the max setting on my ODR curve even if I didn't have boost enabled. So if according to the outdoor temp my SWT should be 132F- if the boiler was firing for over 30min continuously it would raise the SWT setpoint to 155F which is reserved for -5F outdoor temps. The heat demands were being met... but the burn times were shortened because of the erroneously elevated SWT's.
The summer 2016 FW update also enabled "0" min post purge on the CH circulator to prevent deadheading the pump if you were using zone valves (specifically their end switches) to control boiler firing. The previous FW had a minimum CH post purge value of 1 min which was bad for the CH pump.
FWIW- the only way to update the firmware on the UFT series is to swapout the display board and the main controller board. It's about a half hour job... the tricky part is trying to get your vendor to get replacement boards with the newest firmware vs. parts that have been sitting on the shelf with older firmware.... ask me how I learned that...
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Ouch!
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The people that assemble the boiler just do as there told or follow a diagram.
They have no clue how anything works so they don't know (or probably care) if the sensors are in the right spot
a lot different from working in the field.0 -
It's kind of unclear as to how much assembly of the HTP and Westinghouse UFT's are done here and how much of it is done in S. Korea.
On the HTP site it states something like "manufactured in S. Korea, finished in USA". That's about as clear as mud...
At one point early on in my search for my new boiler I downloaded the Westinghouse UFT manual and called the tech support phone number... it was HTP staff that answered the call.
It's a complicated, sometimes confusing relationship at best.
Manufactured by Kiturami in S. Korea, "finished" in the USA... whatever that means, sold as Westinghouse (or HTP) brand name, with tech support by HTP.0 -
Rob,
Thanks for the detailed info about the firmware and issue you had. It sure would be nice if I have the update. But if not, hopefully it operates smoothly anyway. we will see. That's a shame not being able to update via download. hopefully they will get on board with that ability in the future.
Thanks for the heads up on Peter lol. I looked last night I was hoping to find an email that I could attach the photos to. I didn't see that option when messaging tech support on the website. I'll have to call or message and wait for them to reply back to attach.0 -
Agree. Anything could have happened. first day on the job, Got distracted for a minute, just didn't care or any number of things in between.EBEBRATT-Ed said:The people that assemble the boiler just do as there told or follow a diagram.
They have no clue how anything works so they don't know (or probably care) if the sensors are in the right spot
a lot different from working in the field.0 -
I just looked. My uft 80 is backwards as well. As well I'm having some control issues with it totally ignoring the ode and Max ch firing rate0
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Did you see NY_Robs post above about the firmware issue he was having? May or may not be related but just wanted to make sure you saw it in case it is.Gooch said:I just looked. My uft 80 is backwards as well. As well I'm having some control issues with it totally ignoring the ode and Max ch firing rate
I'm sure someone who knows what they're talking about will chime in ( New toy for me) but in the meantime, I was curious how you were piped. Top, bottom or both?0 -
Both. Bottom feeds my DHW. Top feeds my CH.0
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The control only uses SWT. Not return temps.0
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For your viewing pleasure. Confirm it with htp if you wish.
You can also run DHW supply out top, and DHW return in the bottom, and the same with CH, or vice versa.
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Correct.0
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