Comments from the collective on what sets the "BAR"?

Gordy

Looking at input on what sets the bar, and what are the limiting factors for installations on setting it.

The bar meaning is what all consumers should get from their comfort system contractor.

hot_rod

I think it needs to be a sloped bar.
There is no reason a customer shopping for a system with a tight budget should not get the same quality of installations the trophy home customer.

The bar should be a code compliant, safe, load calculated, efficient systems installed in a professional manner. Regardless if it is the economy sheetmetal box furnace, or top of the line German hydronics.

New England SteamWorks

Because budgets very, I would answer the question as follows:

The contractor should communicate very effectively what the proposal includes, what it excludes, and what the customer can expect once the work is complete.

Assuming that happens, they should get a sense of satisfaction when the job is complete.

If a customer isn't profusely thanking us when we're leaving, - it's not a success.

Communication, as with all things, is key. We contractors are task oriented, as it should be. If the task is wrong, good communication won't help. But ignoring the communication aspects can lead to a good job going sour...

New England SteamWorks

P.S. @Gordy , I am inspired by your large and/or long nipple inventory project. Trying to organize myself, in such a way that they can be transported, and easily inventoried for restocking. Any more help or photos from your set up much appreciated!

Tinman

I agree with @hot rod and @RI_SteamWorks. Hard to top that.

Where's the post on Gordy's pipe organization? I haven't come up with a solution yet either but it wasn't an issue until we started doing steam.

Danny Scully

Wasn't that @Gordo?

New England SteamWorks

> @Danny Scully said:
> Wasn't that @Gordo

Oops! Yes, @Gordo !

Zman

hot rod said:

I think it needs to be a sloped bar.
There is no reason a customer shopping for a system with a tight budget should not get the same quality of installations the trophy home customer.

The bar should be a code compliant, safe, load calculated, efficient systems installed in a professional manner. Regardless if it is the economy sheetmetal box furnace, or top of the line German hydronics.

I agree with the sloped bar concept.
I think the biggest challenge and void in the system is the "code compliant" part.

We have well written codes governing electrical sizing, plumbing, insulation , windows, structural loads, you name it....

When it come to residential heating and cooling there is almost nothing in the code and what does exist does not make much sense. I have seen countless code required high efficiency boilers that are oversized by 100%-400% and attached to high temp emitters. The frustration is that in many cases the AHJ and the policy makers are completely unaware that these systems will never achieve much more than 80% net efficiency.

As much as I dislike adding layers to an already over regulated system, I think if the code is going to require high efficiency boilers (whole other subject) , a heat loss calculation and a worksheet showing that the emitters will support the boilers efficiency and that the boiler is properly sized should be part of the package.

Gordy

A sloped bar. I like that answer. Price point plays a huge role in the system. From meh to wow. The limiting factor being the budget the installer is faced with. Good, better, and best come to mind. All involving the basic concepts. Code compliant, reliability, efficiency, and safety.

Frankly it takes more finess to give a budget friendly system to meet the above constraints. Being the installer has the aptitude to meet the lower, and upper end of the bar.

Fred

If you don't mind a HO's opinion, from a customer's perspective, I'd like:
- the installation of quality products with a known track/performance record.
- A quote that doesn't assume I, as a customer, want the cheapest product(s) and the cheapest installation on the market.
- I don't want a quote based on the immediate availability of a product if it is known to have potential issues or simply because the installer gets a better discount or credit of some kind for pushing that product.
- A contractor that won't take short cuts on any of the planning, sizing, specifications or the installation details or commissioning and follow-up.
- An honest, trustworthy company and crew.
- A contractor who will stand behind his/her work and the product(s) they sell me.
- A contractor who will give me options that allow me to understand what I'm getting for my money. Assurance that the low end will meet my minimum requirements but will advise me how I might benefit from the incremental costs of the mid range and upper end products/installation. Don't oversell what you haven't seen proof of.
- No sales pitch, just facts. I made contact because I need something. Skip the sales pitch and spend the time on my options/alternatives.
- Know that your quote will (or should) include the overhead necessary for you to take the time needed to inform me of my options and about the installation. Spend that time with me and my project.
- Don't sell me packaged "bells and Whistles" especially if you know they are of little value. Even if they are or may be value adds or just nice to have, the core functionality must be solid.
- A fair and reasonable quote that won't creep up for unknown reasons. If a hidden problem surfaces, show me and let's discuss how we address it. Don't assume that because it wasn't in the quote that you can ignore it. If after you start an installation, you note something that might add some additional benefit, but was not in the original quote, let's discuss that too.
- Clean and professional work area during installation and when completed.
- demonstration of the system, when complete with any maintenance tips I might need to understand, along with the Owner's manual.
- I like to watch my installation but I want to feel I can go and come as I please and the quality of work won't change.
- I want to know that if you don't have the time to do the job right, or in my time frame, that you will tell me you can't do it rather than cut corners to save time at my long term expense. I will live with the job long after you leave the premises.
- Bottom line, quality, quality, quality.
Sorry for the long post but these are my initial thoughts.

hot_rod

I suppose this is why trade guilds, unions and associations like the RPA, etc have sprung up over the years. A group decides that the industry should be well trained for code compliance, design criteria and workmanship in their trade.

Certainly there are different interpretations of workmanship, but legal and code compliant should be the one norm.
Appropriate design is starting to be enforced more with required load calc in many areas. Some may say that requirement is too much "big brother"

Nobody likes excessive government, but the health and safety of the public requires more that the honor system, sadly.

Keep in mind codes are usually considered what is a minimum.

Being professional, again has many definitions, I agree that explaining the job and options to the customer should be another must do.

And getting paid a fair wage, another pet peeve

ChrisJ

hot_rod

ChrisJ said:

Now there is a bar that needs to be set.

Gordy

It's a different industry in my eyes. How many here could be given any one client, and perform the job exactly as the other 5,10,or 100 installers even with the collective here on this site.

Yet still have the outcome that covers the set of laws of a good, better, or best installation. Code, safety,efficiency, and design. All performed with the utmost professionalism.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Unfortunately, the codes and inspectors haven't caught up with modern technology of mod-cons etc. it will take some time.

There is still way too many hack jobs going on.

All jobs should meet code.

Not everyone can afford a Caddy, sometime you can only give them a Ford Focus, but it should be sized right and installed to code.

Tinman

When inspectors look at our jobs they have no idea what they're looking at unless it's a cast iron boiler.

Gordy

Well it's a good thing men like you do!

EBEBRATT-Ed

HAHA. I won't mention the town but it's near Foxboro where the Patriots are winning tonight.

We did 1/2 million $ piping job including some boilers. The "Mechanical Permit" cost was 27K (no lie)

This plant manufactured cardboard.

When the inspector came to inspect we were walking through the plant to get to the boiler room. We walked past the cardboard corrugating machines which were huge.

He said "wow, those are nice boilers"

We hadden't even gotten to the boiler room yet

Gordy

Yikes!.......

rick in Alaska

EBEBRATT.ED. Maybe you should have just stopped there!
Rick

Paul Pollets

HR:
"There is no reason a customer shopping for a system with a tight budget should not get the same quality of installations the trophy home customer."

So are you saying a budget customer should get the same as a trophy home system?

I'm sure that I might be long dead and gone before any hydronic system is installed to a code that requires isolation valves, purge valves, air elimination, proper near-boiler piping, pipe insulation, etc. Let's not forget an energy-savings OD strategy. Almost 90% of the service work I see has errors (and usually significant errors) in the boiler piping and headers. Even basic systems should have required minimum standards and piping practices.

Tinman

I believe, at some point, the Radiant Professionals Alliance will impact how local and national codes are written. Until then, the forced air guys will provide us with plenty of opportunities for re-pipes and updated control strategies.

hot_rod

Paul Pollets said:

HR:
"There is no reason a customer shopping for a system with a tight budget should not get the same quality of installations the trophy home customer."

So are you saying a budget customer should get the same as a trophy home system?

I'm sure that I might be long dead and gone before any hydronic system is installed to a code that requires isolation valves, purge valves, air elimination, proper near-boiler piping, pipe insulation, etc. Let's not forget an energy-savings OD strategy. Almost 90% of the service work I see has errors (and usually significant errors) in the boiler piping and headers. Even basic systems should have required minimum standards and piping practices.

Workmanship and code compliance should be the same for the trophy home as the first time homebuyer on a tight budget, is my point..

Say for example you are an HVAC contractor, the customer cannot afford a state of the art V brand hydronic radiant package. Wouldn't you do the same quality work if it turned into a cast boiler and fin tube job.

Actually I know know the answer to that

Bob Bona_4

Right, there's a minimum all clients get from me- pumping away, fed right, iso valves, Spiro, etc. Whether it's a modcon or dinosaur. The budget is  in the equipment.

EBEBRATT-Ed

But some people have little or no money.

Putting in a bunch of extra isolation valves costs a bit of money (pro press valves are pricy) and the valves are probably not code required. (this is just an example)

I am all for extra valves, we all know they will probably pay for themselves over the life of the equipment........not everyone gets a Caddy.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@rick in Alaska Your right. Should have stopped there. That was a few years back and once in a while I still think about the cost of the permit $$$$$$$ and the fact that he didn't know what he was looking at.

I was kind of taken aback. Wanted to say something like " are you kidding, is that what I get for 27K" but he was a nice guy (incompetent) and he approved the job so I kept my mouth shut

Gordy

I guess it comes down to if you will own it after installation. What makes your servicing components easier?

Here is what i see. Giving what should be required could throw you out of the saddle of a job to a bidder that could care less about giving the customer a compitent system installation. Or at the very least does not know what one is. They are cheap.

Until that playing field is leveled which I do not see happening any time soon. Your saving grace is the bar you set, and can show to other potential clients. If that costs to much, or is not good enough then it's probably a job you would not want.

Gordy

Until " everyone" is on board with what is, and should be required top to bottom it will continue to be a mess.

Cost has little to do with the hack other than giving the customer less, and putting more in the hacks pocket. We have all seen expensive, equipment, and components thrown together in a chaotic manner that defies the odds that it could even function.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Gordy , that's how you regulate the type of customers you work for, by setting your own standards for the installations you do. Everyone is free to do that as they see fit

Doesn't mean (IMHO) that a lesser job is a hack job if the workmanship is good and the job works well, it just has less bells & whistles, is code compliant and safe.

Question: Not trying to stir things up (yes I am). But what about an oversized boiler? The job gets inspected, meets code, perfectly safe, neat and clean.

How many people here could agree on what pick-up factor to use. 100 installers probably 30 different answers

Harvey Ramer

I like this topic.
The fact of the matter is, there is enough variety of product out there, allowing you to tailor a system for most customers' budgets. Through proper product selection and system design, you can even beat your competitions prices without sacrificing system quality, and still have a higher profit margin than they bid on.

The bar is in safety, knowledge and workmanship. It should remain the same whether you are building a state of the art project or installing an economy system.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Harvey Ramer said "The bar is in safety, knowledge and workmanship", I agree with that.

However, some may say that for instance, that not installing isolation valves would be poor workmanship.

It's a matter of opinion

Tinman

This is about as "low" as my comfort zone will allow. I added the 3rd pic just to show that we piped the discharge of the relief valve. Like Bob Bona said, pumping away, air sep, and some sort of isolating valves although just a little less on this one.

Bob Bona_4

I would say not putting in some reliable way (or retaining decent valves) to isolate the boiler/purge is not so much bad workmanship, it's just shortsighted, to have to deal with a headache for the next 20 something yrs.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Stephen Minnich Perfectly acceptable in my opinion. Valves in the right spots, drain, purge, Isolate boiler from the system, change pump etc.

Could have even omitted the ball valve on the supply coming out of the boiler, and drained a gallon out to change the circ.

Tinman

Ed - not sure I follow? There's only a valve above the pump. Just below it is a vertical air sep.

Gordy

Like I said if you think about yourself having to service your own work. Even if it is someone else, a competitor who does it. Maybe your example will sink in, and just maybe you will have to service their work another day, and that example you set will come around.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Stephen Minnich

My mistake!! Thought it was a ball valve