Return line feeding underground? Excessive water usage?

mike85k

Hi!
I purchased a house with steam heat in September, and am just now becoming familiar with it, I have changed several vents on radiators, and have a new main line vent on order. I am currently reading "We got steam heat" and trying to understand this thing. The boiler appears to have just been installed in the fall of 2015.

I don't understand the return line plumbing though, the feedlines are against the basement ceiling, and angled, but at both ends a pipe drops down to the floor and works its way back to the boiler, this makes sense to me as a return, but what I dont understand is that there are what appear to be drains that go into the concrete floow near the boiler, two of them. At first I thought that these may just be some sort of stands that look like a tee fitting, but my water usage appears to be very high, I have an automatic feeder with a counter, I reset it on December first, and it is currently showing 33 gallons of usage, that is excessive right? I dont see any leaks in the system, is all the condesate that is running down those pipes running right into a drain?

Ironman

It's difficult to tell if the piping coming into the Tees from the slab is a couple of wet returns (likely) or if there's a cap just below the Tees and it's being used for support.

33 gal. in 6 weeks is excessive and indicates a leak(s).

Your near boiler piping is incorrect in more than one place from what your pics show. That can cause water to be drawn up into the steam main a be spit out of the vents which would account for your water loss.

Can you post some more pics that show all of your near boiler piping?

It also looks like the boiler needs skimming. That can cause water to surge into the steam riser too.

What the pressuretrol set for?

I just noticed that the pigtail holding the pressuretrol is wrong: it HAS to be vertical, not horizontal! Rotate it 90* counterclockwise.

Whoever installed this didn't know steam.

mike85k

Hi Bob, I can take some more pictures this evening. I thought 33 gallons was excessive, I don't get any spitting from any radiators, and there are no leaks that I can tell so i'm not sure where all that water is going.
How can you tell the boiler needs skimming from these pictures? Is that something I can do myself? The pressuretool was set for 9psi, I backed it down to 4 a couple weeks ago as I started learning this stuff, and last night I backed it down to .5 per Dan's book. I did notice that the pigtail was oriented differently that in the book, do I just twist it to rotate it?

BobC

That pigtail is doing nothing installed the way it is, The pigtail and pressuretrol sb removed, cleaned and installed the right way.

The boiler sb flushed and skimmed til the water in the boiler is clean.

The source of the water loss has to be found or that boiler will die an early death. Where do you live, you should get a knowledgeable stem man to look at your system and make recommendations.

Bob

mike85k

I am in Shaprsville PA, about an hour north of Pittsburgh.

BobC

Any of these guys close by?

https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/state/PA

Bob

ChrisJ

Please post a picture further out as well.
The piping looks like it's also wrong and will cause issues, though not water loss.

neilc

is that slab wet along the wall under the wet return?
33 gallons worth ?
how about a close up picture of the wall, slab, and the vertical pipes resting or penetrating the floor slab?

and another pic of the pipes above the boiler,
following the 2 silver elbows above the boiler to the ceiling,

mike85k

Its wet dampt around the floor, but thats coming from the hot water tank nearby. I'll take some more pictures this evening after I get home from work.

Fred

That boiler needs to be skimmed. I can see a layer of oil on the surface of the sight glass. I doubt that the boiler was ever skimmed when it was installed. You don't have a skim port installed. It would go in that boiler tapping that has that plug in it, next to your sight glass. As has been said, turn that pigtail so that it is vertical and the loop can hold water in it to protect the gauge and the pressuretrol from steam. Also, you turned the scale on the front of the Pressuretrol down to .5 PSI. Take the cover off of the Pressuretrol (one screw on the front bottom center) and make sure the white wheel inside is set to "1" facing the front of the Pressuretrol.
I can also see caps on those Tee's that drop to the floor so they are just there to support the wet return pipes and hold them a couple inches off of the floor. 33 gallons of water is a lot of water in a month. About 33 times what you'd typically expect. Has anyone drained and refilled the boiler during that time? Do you have low water pressure into your home? Is the water valve that feeds that feeder fully open? The meters on those valves are time driven, not actual flow driven so the meter measures the time spent with the internal valve open feeding water into the boiler. It does not measure the actual water flow. Low house/line pressure or restricted flow will cause the meter to register more gallons than actual fed water. If it were me, when you have time to watch the boiler, I'd drop the water in the boiler until it shuts down on low water ((to make sure the Low water Cut-off is working, then I'd fill the boiler back up with water to it's normal level and I'd shut the auto water feeder off, completely and let the boiler run it's normal cycle. If you are actually losing a gallon of water a day, within 24 hours you should see the water level drop in the sight glass and the boiler may shut down on low water. If that happens, you are actually losing water. If the water stay very close to the original water line, when the boiler is idle) something is awry with the meter/feeder. That much water should present itself somewhere and given the boiler is new, I doubt it's going up the chimney as steam but check the chimney outside when it's running and see if there is an unusual amount of smoke(steam) coming out of it. Just in case someone knocked a hole in the boiler, above the water line, during installation. Sorry for the long post!

mike85k

I tried loosening the nut holding the pigtail in place but wasnt getting anywhere, the boiler was off but slightly warm, I'll try again when its cooler. I did check the white wheel inside the pressuretool and it is set to 1 already. Glad to hear that you think those pipes are capped, now to find the real problem. . .
Nobody but me has touched the boiler in that time, I removed some water from the drain on the bottom, and refilled before resetting the meter, everything since has been fed either by the auto feeder or a occasional top off by me. Our water pressure is low, but not terrible, the valves are all the way open. I will take your advice on turning off the auto feed and seeing what the loss is, going to be fairly warm here for the next few days so it may be hard to tell for sure.
No need to apologize for the long post, I appreciate the expertise and insight.
Below are additional pictures I was able to take tonight, if I missed something let me know.

Abracadabra

mike85k said:

I tried loosening the nut holding the pigtail in place but wasnt getting anywhere,

What nut? All you need to do is turn the brass pigtail pipe.

Aren't you getting any hammering? That pipe at the hartford loop should be a close nipple.

Fred

That "nut" you are referring to is actually a bushing to reduce the boiler tapping to 1/4" for the pigtail. you don't need to touch that. As @Abracadabra said, put a small pipe wrench on the brass pigtail and turn it up right.

KC_Jones

If memory serves mega press only goes up to 2". That is a 150k boiler which is supposed to be piped at minimum with 2 1/2" pipe. I guess manuals are a second language for the installer.

And yes that Hartford loop...wow. I don't think you could even do the Hartford loop properly with the megapress, the fittings seem too big.

mike85k

Ok, I was able to get the pigtail upright, I thought I needed to loosen that nut, but I got that straightened out now. I drained the water below the glass, roughly 3 gallons, I reset the meter and filled it back up with that, it said 4 gallons to fill it higher than it was, so I'm guessing its fairly accurate, I disconnected the power to it so I can monitor the actual level. I couldn't get that big square screw off to skim it, even with my 12" crescent wrench.
I get some hammering from the radiator in the dining room, but that's the only hammering I get, nothing from the boiler. The only issues I have are slow heat, more whining from a few radiators than I would like, and the excessive water usage.

Walking around the basement I found something else interesting, where the wet return passes through a wall it transitions to a rubber hose held on by a few clamps, its right over a drain and it appeared wet. I didn't see any dripping, but Im thinking this is odd, and could be the culprit.

mike85k

Oh to clarify, I removed the brick that the pipe was propped up on and replaced it with a bucket, thinking this should quickly give me an idea if there is a gallon a day leaking from here. Any suggestions what to do with this?

Fred

Yes, that needs to be corrected. It is probably leaking and running into the drain. Rubber hose is not a good long term fix. It may get you through a few days to a few weeks but it will erode and leak eventually. It also looks like that rubber hose has collapsed as well. That will restrict the flow of condensate. Probably holding it in that area and letting it drip into the drain. That section of return should be cut out and replaced. The remaining wet return should be checked while you have it open. If it looks like it's in bad shape, replace it all and put Tee's and full port valves at each end so you can flush it out every year or two.

Ironman

You also have two piping errors that should be corrected:
1. The boiler riser should be at least 2.5", not 2". Or, two 2" risers should have been used. The boiler has two taps. Two are always better than one. It should not be run horizontally until it's at least 24" above the boiler's water line.


2. This nipple should be no more than 2" long or a Y fitting should have been used to connected the Hartford loop. The long nipple that's there will cause water hammer.


Here's how it should look:


Or better:

Fred

@Ironman , looking at the water level in the sight glass, he's above the 24" required for that horizontal. I totally agree the Hartford loop should use a close nipple. oddly he says he isn't getting any hammer there. Ideally, if he could flip the top and bottom of that Hartford loop, he's have what he should have there. I guess as long as he is not having a problem with it, it's something to keep in mind, especially if he has to replace the wet return piping. That would be the ideal time to correct that.

mike85k

So, today the water level is pretty much exactly where I filled it to last night, and there is no water in the bucket. The auto-feeder is still disabled, so I don't understand.
My new mainline vent came today, but I cant unscrew the nipple that is currently threaded in there. I've hit it with pb blaster a few times now, and will let it soak in it overnight, any other tips?

Fred

Will that reducing coupling come off? If so take it off and get yourself a 3/4" union and a one or two inch nipple. Put one half of the union on the existing nipple, put the other half on one end of the new nipple and the 3/4" coupling on the other end and mount your Vent. You should have bought a Barnes and Jones Bigmouth or Barnes and Jones Vari-vent. Much more venting capacity.

Fred

Did the boiler run enough today to fill that wet return back up? It probably drains near empty and may have to run a while to create enough condensate to fill that wet return back up, especially if the leak is on the top portion of that rubber pipe.

mike85k

I know it ran today, but Im not sure how much, I'm leaving the auto-feeder off and the bucket in place, but its suppossed to be pretty warm this weekend so it probably wont run much.
You right that's probably easier to get it off at that reducer, I'll soak that down with pb-blaster and try that in the morning.

MilanD

Trick I used to get pb blaster to go down is to scrape around where thread and fitting meet. Then tap on the pipes as you spray and watch it actually go down into the fitting. A little at the time, you don't need much. And get the biggest wrench you can get, plus a breaker bar. For anyone who has ever removed 100 year old plug out of the fitting, or replaced the anode rod in a water heater, you know what it takes to back out that puppy.

mike85k

I was able to change out that vent, it does seem to make a big difference in the time it takes for the main-line to heat,. I've kept the auto-feeder off and that bucket under that rubber hose, surprisingly there is no water collecting in the bucket, and the water level has only dropped slightly in the sight glass. This weekend Im going to look at replacing that rubber hose.

One other change I did while working through this, I had the thermostat dropping pretty cold during the day, and at night, through reading I am realizing that is not ideal for steam, that has been changed and now it doesn't drop lower than 5 degrees cooler. Obviously now it runs in shorter runs more frequently, when before it was having to run 1.5hr+ to get back to my set temp before I got home from work, and in the morning. Were these long runs wasting water?
Also my humidity has increased for some reason from 30% to 50%, when it was that dry could water have been evaporating out of the system into the air?

Fred

A five degree set back is still a lot. The Humidity change is a little concerning. Are you sure the radiator vents are closing like they should? Are any of the radiator vents leaking steam around the valve stem? Is the change in humidity throughout the house or just one area? Environmental conditions will change humidity levels. Has it been rainy? There will be some evaporation, especially during really cold spells when the boiler runs for extended periods. I'd watch it for a while and see if you can isolate a cause. If the boiler is holding water, with the auto feed off, it is likely natural evaporation ot maybe a leaky radiator valve or vent.
That hose should be replaced with black pipe and the rest of that wet return checked out and flushed out as well. Replace if necessary. Rubber hose is not a good fix, except maybe temporarily.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Mega Press. Bet they got in and out fast, but not cheap.

Ironman

Is this (orange circle) part of the rubber or is the black iron pipe actually collapsed here:

Is this (green arrow) the socket of a fitting inside the wall?

mike85k

if five degrees is too much what is an acceptable setback?
I found a small drip in one of the radiator valves upstairs, I cleaned it up and formed a new washer with some graphite packing. I've replaced most of the vents throughout the house, none are whining or hissing now, nor do I see spitting or sitting water near any radiators. The radiator in the dining room has a small crack in the bottom, I patched it with some JB Weld, but am still getting a drip from that occasionally, that's the only leak I've seen.
The humidity has increased outside, its 88% right now. The only humidistat I have is the one built into my thermostat, so its hard for me to say if its localized, or the whole house.

The orange circle is around a rubber hose, it connects to the wet pipe on this side of the wall, the rubber hose goes through the wall, then connects back to the wet line on the other side.

Fred

If the boiler Steam rating is very close to the total connected EDR (Radiators) you can get away with that 5 degree set-back without much, if any short cycling. If the boiler is over-sized, and most are, you will likely get some short cycling with those longer heat cycles to bring the house back up to temp. In that case, no set-back is best but you can try about 3 degrees and see how that works for you.

mike85k

I've havent experienced any short cycling yet, if I do I will adjust my setback.
I think i may have identified the source of the water loss. I was putting some insulation in an attic section when I started to hear some hissing, I thought it was strange, and started to pull up the fiberglass insulation that was in the area it was coming from. Im shocked to find a radiator vent!



A ton of steam was coming out of it, the fiberglass nearby was damp, but not soaked. Why in the world is there a steam line and vent in my attic? Should some type of mainline vent be on here? Is this a situation where capping may be a good thing? It appears to branch off from one riser that only feeds one bedroom.

JUGHNE

Perhaps that pipe and vent were to vent the 2nd floor riser.
Maybe put up there to avoid the noise of a main vent in the bedroom at night.
If you cap it there would probably be a delay in steam delivery to that riser.
It could have been the main vent for that part of the steam main/system.

Fred

Most likely that riser was slow to deliver steam to that radiator. Is it the furthest from the boiler? Someone decided to put a vent on that riser to get the air out faster than the radiator vent would have. Not a bad idea but you ned to replace it with a good vent. You can try taking that vent off and plugging the opening and see what kind of impact it has on that radiator/bedroom but I'd be inclined to just replace it with a good Gorton #1 or Hoffman #75.

mike85k

It is the furthest point from the boiler, its only 1/4 opening and on the side so I couldn't put a mainline vent on there without some additional fittings. I have a hoffman #40 delivering tomorrow that I was intending to put in the bathroom, i think I'll end up putting that in there.

JUGHNE

Is this the only pipe from the 2nd floor going into the attic?

Fred

@mike85k , a Hoffman #40 is a very slow vent. If I were you, I'd go a much larger vent to get the air out of that riser quickly and then let the radiator vent that is on that radiator be slower and do its job of venting the air out of the radiator itself, especially since it is furthest from the boiler, meaning there is more air to evacuate from the supply piping.

mike85k

Yea it makes sense to put something that will vent quickly in there, I just don't like that it'll be wasting heat energy by heating up a pipe in the attic, and if/when that vent fails its not going to be easily apparent.
As far as I know this is the only pipe going into the attic, I need to check on the other side (attic is split in two sections) and see if there is another over the other riser.

Fred

You will likely waste more fuel trying to get steam to that radiator, with no vent or a very small one than you will with a properly sized vent. That's if you get that radiator hot at all during a normal heat cycle. If you are sure there is only one radiator on that riser and you have room, you could take that vent off and plug that hole and put a vent on the radiator supply pipe, just before the radiator. That will vent the pipe and you can see what it is doing. Leave the smaller vent on the radiator to vent the radiator.

mike85k

So its been a while since I've updated everyone, here's what I can think of thats happened in the past few weeks.
I replaced the vent in the line in the attic with a maid of mist with the largest orifice, I have a hoffman 40 on the only boiler on that line. It seems to heat pretty quickly now.
I skimmed the boiler for an hour or so, overall the water looked pretty good, a little brown, but not oiley, the PH was off my chart, so I added a little vinegar to try to bring it down.
I currently have the radiator from the dining room disconnected, and trying to seal a few leaks, this was leaking steam when the pressure grew.
I purchased another Gorton #1 and now have both connected to a tee and some elbows at the main line vent.
Today I thought I heard a hissing coming from the boiler, I started taking the jacket off and realized what I was hearing was actually the electronic control, but I did notice some rust on the outside of the un-used riser plug, I don't see any steam exiting it, but if why else would it be rusted? Should I be concerned or replace this plug?




Finally I dont understand the plumbing around the auto-feeder, wont the line to the left always fill? Or is that a check valve on the top?

Fred

One of those valves on the water supply (left valve) by-pases the water feeder and be in the off position when the water feeder is being used. If you shut the feed off to the water feeder, that valve should allow you to manually feed water (Open it to feed) to the boiler. If both are on, a lot of water is going somewhere???

That plug doesn't look like it's leaking. Just some rust from a water splatter at some time.

mike85k

The fitting on the top that I thought may have been a check valve is a regular valve with the handle removed, in the closed position. I reattached the handle and was able to bypass the auto feeder but setting both to on, no idea why they felt they needed two valves there.