Leaky radiator valve(s), low water cut-off, etc.

JD102183

Hi all - after scouring this site for a couple weeks, having a few HVAC/plumbers over, I decided to post my questions/issue... Thanks in advance for any and all insight..

Background and questions:
We have a steam system, gas heat. The boiler is approximately a year old. We just purchased the house in June so this is our first winter/heating season as homeowners in this house. I have attached pictures of the boiler and also one of our radiators (the one causing the most of an issue) for reference.

One of the bedrooms in my home is spewing a decent amount of water out of the vari-valve each time the heating system starts and heats up. We tried changing the valve, it did not help. We tried altering the pitch, it did not help. The pressue was going up to around 5PSI at this time. Finally, I had a plumbing company came in - they said to service the boiler and that would solve the issue. So, we serviced the boiler. The company did not ensure the pressure was set properly before they left. Low and behold, the pressure was going up to 10PSI after they serviced the boiler. The same company came back and lowered the pressure, drained the system again, checked each radiator, checked the valve on the room causing the issue. They claimed the issue was fixed, but unfortunately it is not. The room in question is spewing even MORE water since the boiler was serviced. And, a few other vents around the house are spilling out some water as well. The plumbing company claims this is because servicing the boiler may have cleared the lines which is creating more of a clear path for the water/steam to spew up. Also, the plumbing company said we have NO return line at all (wet or dry). They stated that this issue would not be resolved until we have a return line (or 2 return lines) installed. The pressure is currently set at 1.5-2PSI.
Additionally, this morning, I checked on the boiler and noticed the "low water cut off light" blinking and the sight glass was very low with water. I have an automatic feed. Should this be automatically refilling with water and in turn causing the low water cut off light to stop blinking? Or, should I have to use the "manual feed" button to put some water into the boiler myself causing the sight glass water to be about half full? Big picture: should I have to do anything to increase the water level in the boiler or should the system be doing it itself??

I should add, with the pressure set to 2 it seems as though when the boiler is first heating up, it cycles on and off a lot, lighting and re-lighting the pilot.

Would having a cast-iron (normal) radiator in all rooms help with the water issue? Would switching to a different valve in the room with the issue help (not using a vari-valve)?

Any and all insight would be appreciated? I am at a loss and feel as though I have hit a wall. Concerned about water damage to wood floors and the causing of a mold issue.

Thank you!

Jessica

Fred

It looks like a counter-flow system (condensate returns to the boiler through the mains, in the opposite direction of the steam flow. That little bit of wet return near the boiler is typical on a counter flow. Make sure the mains pitch back towards the boiler so that water can drain into the short wet return. It sounds like the current company you are using has no clue about steam systems and their explanations are crazy.
You need to find a good steam Pro. Check the "Find a Contractor" tab on this site. Where are you located? Make sure the Pressuretrol is set properly. The scale on the front should be set at .5PSI and the white wheel inside the cover should be set at "1" facing the front of the unit. Make sure the pigtail (looped pipe the pressuretrol is mounted on) is not clogged. Take the Pressuretrol off and blow into the pipe. If it is clogged, you will not be able to blow through it.
Has the boiler ever been skimmed? New boilers and piping have a lot of oil in them that must be skimmed off multiple times. I see you have a skim port but if you see any oils sitting on top of the water, in the sight glass, it needs to be skimmed again. That oil will cause the water level to be very unstable.
As for your auto water feeder, it should feed water automatically. Make sure it is wired to the Low water cut-off properly.

Jamie Hall

First question: where are you located? From your problems it is quite clear that you don't have a good steam person to help you out, and it is possible that we may know one in your area.

OK. Onward. For the moment we'll leave out the fact that the boiler piping isn't helping you any, and sort of look at other things.

However, the plumber who said you needed a return line or two is clearly uninformed about steam. I'm sure he is a good plumber. He is not a good steam person. You don't need a return line -- provided the rest of the piping is as it should be.

The automatic feeder should be doing just that, and keeping the water level where it belongs. However, it shouldn't have to do that very often. The counter on it says that it has fed about 20 gallons since it was last reset, which is about ten times what it should be assuming it was reset when the boiler was installed. This suggests that you are losing water -- and from your description, quite possibly all from the vents. You shouldn't have to manually feed; it may be that you caught it before it had a chance to do it itself (there is a time delay).

You should check all of the steam piping for the correct pitch. From what I see in the pictures, it looks like a "counterflow" system -- that is, a one pipe steam system with all the pipes pitching back to the boiler. If that is true, then indeed all the pipes must pitch back towards the boiler, where it will be collected in the two big pipes on either side of the boiler and dripped down to return.

If you really have the system set to cut off at less than 2 psi now, that's low enough for the moment. However, the higher pressure previously may have -- in fact, very likely has -- destroyed the radiator vents. They should close when steam gets to them.

There might also be vents on the steam mains themselves, in the basement, called main vents (there should be -- and if they aren't there, they need to be added). Check those too.

Back to the boiler. It is piped wrong. I won't try to describe just how here -- others will remark on that -- but it is piped in such a way that you are almost certainly getting a good bit of water carried up into the steam, and that is causing some of your problems.

As I said at the beginning, where are you? We may well know someone good nearby who could help.

JD102183

Located in Nassau County, Long Island, NY. Thank you for the comments so far, I really appreciate it. I look forward to reading more. I am admittedly completely uneducated on steam heat (or really any heat) and a new homeowner.

I got the impression that the plumber I dealt with had NO idea about steam systems, which is why I just left it as is after they didn't even service it properly (seemingly).

I take it the 20 gallon number (it was 17 before they drained and refilled the boiler) is way too high as a result of the water spillage out of the radiators?
You mentioned the vents being harmed due to the increased pressure it was previously set at... are we talking about the vari-valves? Should I try switching those out again as a first step?

It is mainly 1 bedroom where I am having the large water issue... though ideally, I don't want any water from any of the vents...

Is a boiler re-piping a significant job?

Thanks again...

Fred

I would find a Steam Pro on this site who can take a look at the system. I'm not sure I see much wrong with the piping but I'm not well versed with Counter flow system piping details. Maybe Jamie sees something I don't. I'm not sure if @EzzyT or @Dave0176 covers your area but they are both excellent. Let's see what they say. I don't know that I would replace any vents until you can get the pressure down, otherwise you will likely ruin the new ones too. The 20 gallons registered on the meter is most likely due to all the water being lost out of the vents. Typically you may lose a gallon a month during the coldest part of the winter. As to your most pressing problem with that one bedroom, more often than not, you have to look at the whole of a steam system. What you are seeing in that bedroom is just a symptom of something else going on in the system. Experienced, knowledgeable Eyes on site would be your best bet.

JD102183

Thank you, Fred. I appreciate that. Hopefully one of the two names you flagged cover my area or I noticed under the contractor tab "steam doctor" is located not too far away... I left a message with him. For now, I have foil covering the vent to stop some of the erratic spraying and dripping. Also, some bowls and what not set up. Hoping that doesn't mess with the heat in the room too much.

Sailah

Fortunately in your area you have your pick of steam experts

https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/state/NY

EzzyT

@JD102183 send me a private message.

Jamie Hall

@JD102183 -- if you can get @EzzyT to look at it, you're home free!

Danny Scully

I operate Scully's Plumbing with my brother and father in the Nassau County area of Long Island. I've had the pleasure of working with @EzzyT, so feel free to contact either of us. If you hire Scully's Plumbing, expect to see @EzzyT on the job

Jamie Hall

Hey -- I'd take any of the three of them!

JD102183

Thank you all! I talked to EzzyT and he was very nice. I am going to get back in touch with him and/or Scully to set up a consultation...

Fred

Excellent! You can't go wrong with either of them.

JD102183

Quick follow-up: if I were to try an alternate valve (i currently have a vari-valve) on the leaky radiator - how would I know which size is appropriate? Say in a Gorton's or any other recommended brand? Thinking I may need a "slower" valve in the problem room as it gets hit first with heat..
And, generally, how do you know what size, etc. measurement, is appropriate for a radiator?
Thanks again...

BobC

If you are using a heatimer varivalve those are much to fast for many radiators and are not easy to adjust at the low end of their range. Gorton, Maid o Mist, and Hoffman make suitable air vents.

If this is a straight pattern vent you have to make sure you have room for the vent you select and then you have to decide how fast to vent the radiator or convector. Convectors usually like to be vented slowly compared to cast isun column type radiators. What hind of vents are you using on the other radiators and what style radiators are they?

Bob

JD102183

Thanks for the response, Bob. Each radiator seems to have a different valve in the house.. the room with the biggest issue does have the varivalve..
Another room that I am having an issue with has a valve that sort of looks like a large silver bullet for lack of a better description? Any idea what that could be and if a slower valve would do bette there too?
All of my radiators are what I assume are convectors? Please see attached picture - is that a convector?
We have 1 cast iron radiator in an upstairs bedroom and have not had any issues with leaking thus far.. (knock on wood)
See attached picture - all radiators are this type...

Fred

The bullet shaped one is likely to be a Hoffman. Unless you can see the number on it, it's not likely we can tell you its vent rate. Many people have really good luck with the Hoffman #41 vent on convectors. It is a slow, reliable vent. I'd start there. Are you sure that valve at the top of your supply pipe is fully open? If not, that will prevent condensate from getting out of that convector and back the water up. Same with all one pipe radiators/convectors.

JD102183

Thanks, Fred. I will do some research and see if I can find a number on the valve..
When you say the valve at the top of my supply pipe - do you mean on the opposite end of the valve on the heater - the knob that typically has a black handle and can be turned left or right? These heaters/pipes are so old that the black knob actually fell off when I attempted to turn it to test that out... I suppose I can try again with a wrench. Just wanted to clarify that I am looking at /working with the right thing...

Thanks again from a clueless, but slowly learning steam homeowner..

Fred

Yes, that valve that use to have a black knob on it.

JD102183

I will gather some additional information regarding the current vents and report back...

Interestingly enough on a radiator that didn't have a leaking problem previously, I switched to a vari-valve and now it does spit a small amount of water... looks like I need to also just eliminate all vari-valve vents and work on replacing the others...

Thanks

Fred

Make sure their is pitch on all the radiators/convectors back to the supply pipe. Make sure all the supply valves are fully open, make sure the Pressuretrol is set correctly at .5 PSI Cut-in and "1" on the white wheel inside the Pressuretrol and that the pigtail (looped pipe) that the Pressuretrol is mounted on is not clogged. It really sounds like maybe the pressure is high enough that the condensate can't get out of the rads/convectors and back to the boiler until the boiler shuts down.

JD102183

I do not know how to open the pressuretrol and adjust it and I fear if I try I may further muck it up...
when the heat is on it goes up to 2PSI on the "dial" before cutting off...
On the outside of the pressuretrol it looks like it is set to between .5 and 1, maybe closer to 1.... not sure about the white wheel inside...
Should the outside be lowered more?
Supposedly the company cleaned out the pigtail...
In the problem room, I have the convector pitched as high as I can without it hitting the top.....

Fred

If you have one of the Pros we recommended, they will check all that out for you. You only need about a quarter inch of pitch so that isn't a problem. Let the Pro evaluate the system for you.

JD102183

Thanks, Fred. That is my best bet. If I can make it through the heating season that would be ideal. However, the whole issue(s) is driving me crazy so I may not hold out that long!

Fred

I do see an issue in the picture of your boiler that may be creating a lot of wet steam. It may be the angle of the picture but it looks like the header is pitched back towards the riser out of the top of the boiler. If that's the case, it should have a slight pitch towards the equalizer that drops back into the boiler, on the lower left side. If it is, in fact, pitched towards that riser, it will allow any water that drops out of the steam to again be carried up into the mains, with the steam.

JD102183

I will look into that as well... I appreciate the feedback.

I seem to maybe have a new issue. Was able to lower the pressuretrol to .5 cut in and the dial inside to 1...
The boiler kicked on once... some of my radiators got warm. The gauge did not register any pressure at all and then the boiler kicked off ... it has not been back on since, despite my thermostat calling for heat (inside temp is 68; thermostat set to 70).
Any insight???
When the pressuretrol was altered, I noticed that the automatic water feeder blinked on and off about 5 times in a row before registering back to the number it had always had on it...

neilc

pressuretrol can get a little sketchy at the bottom of the scale and not cut back in,
try a quarter or half turn tighter, raising the scale just that little bit,
The other thing is the pigtail, which if clogged could be hiding the boiler pressure from the Ptrol.
Is the pigtail clear ?
also check bottom of the Ptrol and the port into the boiler itself,
can you blow thru the open pigtail back into the boiler ?

Fred

Did you turn the screw on top of the Pressuretrol more after the indicator was at .5? Take the cover off of the Pressuretrol again and look and see if, by chance you turned the screw to much and the linkage dropped off of the end of the screw. If it did, thread the screw back into that link and it should be fine.

JD102183

I think that is what happened - I re-threaded it and it seems to be kicking on and off now... going up to 1.3-1.4 on the gauge and kicking off and starting all over. It cycles on and off constantly until the desired temperature on the thermostat is reached... I suppose that is part of the larger issue though.. Thanks for the advice!!

neilc

JD102183 said:

It cycles on and off constantly until the desired temperature on the thermostat is reached...

so now this sounds like main venting, or lack there of

Fred

You've got a nice slim port on the side of that boiler. Was the boiler skimmed when it was installed? Does the water in the sight glass bounce up and down a lot? If so, I suspect it probably needs a good long, slow skim to get the oils out of the boiler. If they just did one skim (or none) when the boiler was installed, that's just not enough to get all the oils out of the system. Those oils can cause a lot of the symptoms you are seeing, including the water out of the radiator vents.
Also, as @neilc commented, good main venting will do a lot to get the air out of the mains so the boiler run time can be maximized for getting steam to the rads and may well result in less boiler run time per cycle.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Although the installers comments seam to show that they don't know steam the pictures show a different story. Don't know about the pipe sizes or pitch but someone read the manual or knows something as the configuration looks correct from what I can see

Fred

I thought it looked pretty decent too @EBEBRATT-Ed . The only thing I question is if the header may be pitched back towards the riser instead of the equalizer. May be the picture, not sure.

neilc

water in the glass is dirty,
a little from the mud legs,
and a decent skim, or several,

if the header pitch was off wouldn't the main drips at the ceiling also help?
or maybe the risers up there are too tall and mains at ceiling are pitched away or level ?

when was Ezzy getting there ?

Fred

neilc said:

water in the glass is dirty,
a little from the mud legs,
and a decent skim, or several,

if the header pitch was off wouldn't the main drips at the ceiling also help?
or maybe the risers up there are too tall and mains at ceiling are pitched away or level ?

when was Ezzy getting there ?

I'm not sure if he has arranged for EzzyT to come out yet?? The drips on the main probably won't help a lot with water droplets suspended in the steam and the velocity pushing it downstream. I can't clearly see both mains but the one that is visible in the last boiler picture looks, to me, to be pitched back to the riser off of the header as well, until it gets to that drip. It probably needs to be pitched to that drip.

EzzyT

Nothing arranged yet, but from my take after speaking to homeowner that the boiler is possibly oversized, lack of main venting and boiler needs to be skimmed. We can fix that with properly piped and oversized header and possibly stage firing with plenty of adequate main venting.

JD102183

Thanks all. I have to arrange an appointment with EzzyT. I can't say enough positive things about this forum and it's members. Thank you for all of the continuing feedback. Also, a big thank you to @EzzyT who took my phone call today when I thought something was majorly wrong with my boiler/pressuretrol!!

JD102183

Also re: main venting. I don't believe I see any visible vents... would those look the same as the valves on the actual radiators?

Re: pitch - I will try to take additional pictures to get some insight on whether you all think the pitch is off near the boiler..

The company that installed the boiler is different than the company that just serviced the boiler. We moved into the house this past June 2016 - I do not know who installed the boiler unfortunately.

Again, thanks.

JD102183

Sorry - I also don't know if the tank was ever skimmed..

MilanD

Once you get all this sorted out, and once you learn a little about your system, you will never want to live with any other heating system until you move to a warmer climate. Lucky to be close to several good steam guys.

Main vent, or air eliminator, lives on the main (horizontal pipe is called a main) in your basement, somewhere after the last radiator riser connection. It will be obvious if present, as it will look like an oversized radiator vent. This must be there for the for the system to work well. Depending how your system is piped, it may also be somewhere in the attic, or at the end of a last vertical radiator riser pipe. If you don't see one, look for plugs after the last radiator riser. Plumbers uneducated in steam love plugging anything that may have been dripping instead of replacing those dripping parts of the heating system. Plug is cheap and they usually have them on their truck.

Your vari vent (and I just learned this recently too) may be a kind without a float. This means that if water hits it it won't close. Actually, most of vents, to my knowledge, won't close on water but some vari vent type vents don't have a float to close if turned upside down.

That convector, judging by the picture, doesn't take much to fill up with condensate. If the valve where the on/off knob is (was - you said it broke off), is not open all the way, it can waterlog the radiator and any new steam hitting the radiator under pressure will jet the water out of the vent like the old faithful. Make sure that valve is open all the way so condensate can drain. If with valve open and lower system op pressure this is still happening, the valve seat may have detached from the stem inside the valve body, is blocking the condensate from draining, but yet is loose enough to allow steam in (acting as a check valve, in essence). This would also show up as water from the vent. In this case new valve will have to be installed. For now, replace the vari vent with another float type vent and turn it upside down. This should block any steam from getting into the rad and jettison the water out. You will also not have any heat from that radiator, so hopefully that's ok. With water in it it's probably not heating well to begin with. If you don't have a vent, get a 2-3 inch 1/8 pipe and a cap - whichever length will fit, and plug the vent threafs until the radiator is serviced and the reason for waterlog discovered. Don't use a plug that small as it may get stuck coming out. Do all this with the system OFF. I am curious how close this convector is to the boiler...

Others have commented on pressure and other issues. You didn't mention any water hammers or noises other than hissing from vents, which is all indicative of either high op pressure, broken or poor quality vents, or too much steam (as in an oversized boiler). No hammering is also a very good thing.

Your boiler is excellent. Weil McLane is great maker of good boilers and has been around a long time. EzzyT will point out any issues with near boiler piping. Of the pics, looks to factory spec, with the exception of equalizer which is not sized down. This may play some into how much water bounces around in the boiler and the overall boiler performance and so called "wet steam".

EzzyT will point all of it out.

Ask EzzyT about water quality issues for your area and if that should be factored into maintenence going forward. Ask him also to show you how to care for it yourself once he is done making it right. With proper care, this boiler will last you a very very long time.

Lastly, welcome to the world of steam heating. It's great here, and toasty warm.

JD102183

Quick follow-up and I will be back with additional information. I am going to purchase a new (slower) valve for the problem radiator (convector that is leaking from the valve). It has a vari-valve heat timer on it. Should I go with a hoffman 41? Or am I better off with a Gorton? If Gorton, exactly which one?
Quick reminder: leaky convector radiator, changed valves (both times to a new vari-valve), altered pitch, serviced boiler, lowered pressure, etc. Still leaking about a 1/2 cup (sometimes slightly more) a day!!! I want to try switching out to a slower valve before taking additional steps (which I plan to reach out to Ezzy and his crew to look into after the heating season is over if I can make it that long). It seems to me that this "problem room" gets hit first with heat...

I also saw when looking at Hoffman 41 - vaccuum or non vaccuum? The one I was looking at said non vaccuum...

Thanks!
Jessica