Air vents hiss whenever boiler is working

heatinghelp819 · January 2017

It's just so weird. The water meter was feeding so much less before we packed loose drippy valves, replaced leaking valves, and replaced spewing vents.

Will post again after this weekend with an update.

heatinghelp819 · January 2017

Where can I find the Barnes and jones vari vent online? I was told on Amazon but it's unavailable there.

Fred · January 2017

You can order them on the store here. @Sailah said he shipped some to Amazon earlier this week so they should show up on Amazon in the next day or two.

BobC · January 2017

You can buy it through this sites store.

http://astore.amazon.com/heatinghelp-20/156-2468232-2397016?_encoding=UTF8&node=13

If it's not in stock they are probably just waiting for stock to come in.

Bob

Sailah · January 2017

heatinghelp819 said:
Where can I find the Barnes and jones vari vent online? I was told on Amazon but it's unavailable there.

Apologies I meant to send more this week but the week got away from me. Feel free to give me a ring at the office and I can get some out.

If I sent to Amazon tomorrow it would be a week before you'd get it due to their fulfillment backlog I've experienced.

heatinghelp819 · January 2017

Great news - had a thorough boiler cleaning done and recalibrated the pressuretrol which was tested and not working properly. Hissing has now stopped, water is clear (a little rosy from two steam master tablets), and water feeder meter hasn't climbed yet (though it has only been a day). So my guess is it was so dirty and pressure was getting so high that air (and maybe steam) was getting pushed through the system at a high velocity and exiting the main and rad vents, resulting in constant hissing and some water loss. I will keep an eye on the water feeder meter but hopefully the cleaning and pressuretrol adjustment fixed everything. If not, not sure where to start in looking for a leak.

I haven't touched the main vents yet since everything has been working ok since the cleaning. Thoughts? Should I still get bigger ones like the Gorton 2s or the B&J vari vent? The pro who came to clean our boiler had recommended the B&J Varivent over the big mouth given our ceiling clearance. Are they user friendly? Any tips on installing them if I do it myself? I'm assuming it's the same as replacing air vents in rads, which I've done...?

Thank you SO much for all your help, everyone!

Fred · January 2017

That's great new! I would still put the B&J Vari-vents on your mains. The hardest part is getting the old ones off but that's not that difficult. Put them on and enjoy some added system efficiency too!

heatinghelp819 · January 2017

More questions, sorry!

Boiler seems to be cycling on and off in short spans. The pressure gauge is not reading anything so I'm not sure it's the pressure cut off; there is still surging but it doesn't look like the LWCO is shutting it off each time (it was activated once, but not every time).

The pressuretrol is definitely tied to the gauge reading right? Ie the pressure gauge would have to register a Hugh enough reading in order for the pressuretrol to cut off the system?

Fred · January 2017

Is the boiler over sized? What is the connected EDR compared to the Sq. FT. Steam rating on the boiler plate? Does the short cycling happen early in the heating cycle or after the boiler has run for a while? Now that you unclogged the pigtail so that the Pressuretrol can see the actual boiler pressure, it is most likely shutting the boiler down, on pressure, at the 1.5PSI it has been set to. Make sure you have as much venting on the mains as is needed to get all the air out without building back pressure. A lack of good main venting will delay steam getting to the radiators to the rads to do its job, causing longer cycles and more short cycling. Tell us the connected EDR and the boiler rating and let's see how far off those two numbers are. The Pressuretrol is now doing its job. Don't change the settings. The higher the steam pressure, the slower steam moves. That's counter productive.

heatinghelp819 · January 2017

I do not know what the EDR is unfortunately; I do know that 2 people who work with steam heat have told me that the boiler is oversized. I saw the short cycling this morning, about 2 hours or so after the boiler had started up this morning. Not sure how long it had been going on.

I'm trying to figure out what is triggering the shutoff of the boiler. There are three possibilities, correct? 1) pressuretrol, 2) LWCO, 3) thermostat temp reached. For 1), if it's set to 1.5, would it still cut out if the pressure gauge is reading 0? If the pressure gauge is not working properly, can the pressuretrol work properly? Or is the pressuretrol completely dependent on the PSI reading on the gauge?

For 2) though I did see the LWCO light turn on and off a couple times while the boiler was on, the boiler didn't immediately shutoff during those instances (maybe there's a delay built in), and separately, there was some on and off cycling without the LWCO on at all. So I don't think this is the reason.

For 3), the boiler was still cycling even once the thermostat hit the target temp. Not sure if that's normal, like if the boiler still runs for a certain amount of time after hitting target temp...

I ordered new B&J main vents today; should get them in a couple days and will install.

KC_Jones · January 2017

If the gauge you are talking about is the 0-30 PSI gauge that came with the boiler it's essentially useless. Operating at low pressure in the bottom of the gauge range is essentially the error rate of the gauge. It will either read zero or something higher than actual. Typically speaking gauges are most accurate in the middle of the range. The gauge has nothing to do with pressuretrol operation. The pressuretrol works from it's settings. The only way to have any idea what is actually going on is to put on a low pressure gauge.

If the thermostat is calling for heat, the LWCO is not tripped and the boiler shuts down that is the pressuretrol shutting it down on pressure.

When you say hit the target temp, did the thermostat stop calling for heat? Do you have a digital thermostat that tells you when it's calling for heat? If this is just you looking at the thermostat and saying it hit temp that doesn't always mean the heat call has ended. On digital thermostats it tells you when it's calling for heat on the display. If you had a non digital mercury thermostat you could watch the mercury and know when the heat call ended. On non digital non mercury I have no idea as I never had one of those.

Fred · January 2017

@heatinghelp819 You need to do the radiator survey so we can know how much the boiler is over-sized.
- If the LWCO is not shutting the boiler down, the Pressuretrol most likely is, due to the pressure reaching Cut-out @ 1.5 PSI. The bigmouth vents will help that some but being over-sized (if true) there will always be some short cycling during longer heat cycles. Are you using set backs on the thermostat at night or when you are not home? If so, stop that. That makes the boiler run for extended periods trying to bring the house back up to temp.
- It sounds like you only have the original 0 -30 PSI gauge on the boiler. Invest a few bucks in a 0 - 3 PSI gauge so you can see the actual pressure. The 0-30 gauge, while required by local codes, is not sensitive enough to measure pressure at lower ranges.
- Yes, the thermostat will shut the boiler down on temp but all of them have some swing they may run a half to a full degree past the set temp before they actually shut down.
- Put the bigmouths on and see how much that helps the situation.

CKNJ · January 2017

+1 on the Vaporstat. Just installed one on my system and the difference is amazing. With the Pressuretrol, once the main vents closed the system would start climbing rapidly and cut off at 1.5 lbs and the radiator vents would whistle! Vaporstat changed all that. Main set for 12 oz, diff at 8. System heats evenly and quietly now. Vaporstat is worth every penny IMO.

heatinghelp819 · January 2017

@fred the thermostat is usually set to 74 during the day and it's set at 68 overnight. Is 6 degrees too much of a hike in the morning?

Fred · January 2017

six degrees is way too much, especially if the boiler is known to be over-sized, if you want to minimize the short cycling. For steam, we typically find a 3 degree set-back to be the the max. Personally, I did away with any set backs. My boiler is also over-sized and, with good venting on the mains, I have eliminated any short cycling. I might get one short cycle when the outside temps are down around zero (on a Vaporstat set at 12 ounces cut-out) I actually found that I could leave the Thermostat set at a comfortable temp (for me) and my gas bill really didn't change so the savings just wasn't there anyway. 74 degrees seems pretty warm, but we each have our own comfort levels.
If I were you, I'd try a 3 degree set back and see how that works for you. Try that for a week and see if the short cycling is significantly reduced. Then try no set backs for a week and note the improvement. Put the Bigmouth vents on ASAP. They will help a lot too.

Abracadabra · January 2017

1 - picture of your pressure gauge?
2 - pictures of your radiators,
3 - provide a list of how many sections and columns/tubes and height of each radiator.
4 - provide the "NET STEAM SQ. FT." number from the rating plate on your boiler.

heatinghelp819 · January 2017

@Abracadabra Some pics attached. (The gauge reading is from pre-recalibration of the ptrol; I haven't seen it above 0 since). I know I need a 0-3 gauge but don't have one yet. My convector rads are old recessed ones that have fins behind the face. There is one rad in the attic, 6 on the second floor (8, 7, 5, 5, 4, 3), 7 on the ground floor (2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 11, 12), and one in the garage (the longest of all); all except the one in the attic (which is a normal full steam rad) are the same type of recessed ones. The numbers I included in parentheses are the numbers of columns in each rad; as an example, I count the number on the rad whose picture I attached as 5. I also attached a pic if our boiler panel.

@fred I will try that with the thermostat. Our second floor is much warmer than our ground floor (which is very drafty). So the 74 is the sweet spot for comfort on the ground level where we mostly are during the day. I will try 71 at night, which will feel more like 74 on the second level while we sleep.

Fred · January 2017

Once you get the Bigmouth vents on the mains, you should be better able to balance the temps between the first and second floors by adjusting the rad venting. I see 454 sq, ft of steam on the boiler. Now we just need to calculate the total EDR of those 14 rad/convectors to compare it to the 454.

Abracadabra · January 2017

#1- that gauge is useless. add a 0-3 psi gauge. that gauge should never move if your pressuretrol/vaporstat is set correctly.

#2 - can't tell on my phone, but those look like sunrads that have legs. 20x5 section is 2sq.ft. per section 23x7.5" section is 3 sq.ft. if there's actually a convector behind a cover, you need to remove the cover and measure the LxWxH of each convector.

heatinghelp819 · January 2017

@abracadabra this is the picture of the backside of one when it was removed from the wall to replace a valve.

Dave0176 · January 2017

The radiators are Weil McLain 4" recessed convectors. Steam goes through that whole panel not just the convector. We just need the height and length measurements as the ratings are in Dans EDR book.

heatinghelp819 · January 2017

@fred I adjusted the thermostat to 71 at night. Problem was some of the pipes in our walls make a lot of noise expanding and contracting when the heat comes on, which woke us up throughout the night. I was thinking of instead of the 6degree jump at once in the morning, maybe I'll set it at 68 overnight, then 71 at 7am, then 74 at 8 or 9am, in hopes that staggering will alleviate the problems with a big 6 degree jump.

Got the B&j varivents yesterday but they're too small for my mains so going to get bushings (per dave0176's advice!) this weekend. Pics of current vents attached.

Rad measurements: the part of the rads that get hot (so not including the feet) is 19" high. And the width of each "column" is 4.5". There's a 1.5" frame (that gets hot) around The columns of the rad.

Fred · January 2017

Looks like the WM single Vectant concealed radiators and it looks like about 3 EDR per 4.5" section. The 75 sections you have identified, if they are all the same height, total about 225 EDR. You need to give us a picture and the size of the radiator in the attic and the one in the garage to add to this total.
If the noise you hear is actually in the walls and is expansion/contraction, it sounds like the pipes may be rubbing against wood, maybe sub flooring? Is it isolated to just one or two rooms? Check in the basement and see if those risers are touching the sub floor. If so, maybe you can put a piece of plastic milk carton between the pipe and the sub floor. If that eliminates the noise, try to permanently fix the plastic to those areas.

Dave0176 · January 2017

I checked the book EDR and did the numbers and looks like she has not counting the attic radiator or garage radiator about 364 sq ft.

Dave0176 · January 2017

@Fred I used this chart she said the sections are almost 5".

Fred · January 2017

@Dave0176 , same chart I used but I just took the 3 sq. ft. per half panel footnote at the bottom of the page X the 75 panels. (It says each half panel is 4-13/16" each) to arrive at the 225 sq.ft + I noted we needed the attic and garage sizes/pictures to add to that number.

Dave0176 · January 2017

@Fred yes but the whole front panel including the frame gets steam so I used the upper by the full recessed length.

Fred · January 2017

Dave0176 said:
@Fred yes but the whole front panel including the frame gets steam so I used the upper by the full recessed length.

Yes, I get it.

heatinghelp819 · January 2017

@fred Yes, I believe the sound is coming from pipes tapping against wood as they expand and contract. Sadly, it's horizontal pipes behind the walls going from one floor up to the next. No way to access them unless I break open walls, which I'm not doing. It's in two areas.

Will take pics of and measure garage and attic rads tmrw.

Thanks all!

heatinghelp819 · January 2017

Pics of garage rad (87" long by 12" high) and attic rad (24" long by 21" high, though the two ends of the rad are about 23" high because of the legs) are attached

Dave0176 · January 2017

The garage looks like a 9-A each full section is 9 sq ft so three sections would be 27 EDR total. The attic appears to be a National radiator at 23" height with 10 sections comes to 30 EDR. So I'm calculating you at 391 EDR total, the boiler puts out 454 sq ft so your not crazy oversized.

The near boiler piping is not helping matters as the plumber only ran one 2" riser into a 2" header, were the manual calls for a MINIMUM of one 2-1/2 riser and header. Steam exit velocity with the single 2" riser is around 44 feet per second. With the 2-1/2 riser and header velocity will drop to 30 fps, still waaay higher then we'd like to see at around 15 fps.

heatinghelp819 · January 2017

Thanks Dave! So I guess since it's not oversized, the only remaining issue is the piping issue and high velocity...

heatinghelp819 · February 2017

So, I installed the B&J varivents a few days ago on my mains. Before I did that, everything was running swimmingly. The water meter hasn't climbed at all and the vents weren't noisy anymore (letting out air/hissing/chirping). So obviously thoroughly cleaning the boiler and recalibrating the pressuretrol really helped.

But once I changed the vents on the mains, which are bigger than the Horton 1's I had, the rads are slightly noisy again - hissing a little when the boiler is on as if it's letting out air, and a couple rads chirp/squeak, as they were before. It also happens that it's been colder than it had been pre-Varivent install, which I guess could make a difference. But I thought the bigger mains would allow all the air to escape there instead of being pushed up to the rad vents. Could it be that the pressuretrol is again off kilter in just a matter of a couple weeks?

I'm starting to think the slight noise I hear from the rads is normal?

Fred · February 2017

Have you ever cleaned the pigtail (looped pipe) that the Pressuretrol is mounted on? They get clogged and the Pressuretrol can't see the steam pressure. The boiler pressure will continue to climb.
Also, did you install the Barnes and Jones Bigmouths or the Barnes and Jones Vari-vents? If you used the vari-vents, did you open them up and lock the head into that open position, using the allen screw on the side of the head so that they stay open in the desired position.
Noise from the radiators and/or piping is not normal.

heatinghelp819 · February 2017

Varivents, as noted above. I opened them up fully; didn't know they could be locked in position, but not sure that'll make a diffeeence... will try anyway.

Yes pigtail was cleaned when boiler was thoroughly cleaned two weeks ago.

Could the outside temp have something to do with this?

Fred · February 2017

Colder temps will cause the boiler to run longer so that certainly comes into play. Having said that, keep in mind, the main vents will vent the air out of the mains. The air in the radiator run-outs (pipes going to the radiators) and the air in the radiators have to be vented through the radiator vents. Are you using set-backs on your thermostat? A set back will also cause the boiler to run for extended periods to bring the house back up to temp.

heatinghelp819 · February 2017

@fred I reduced the setback to a 3 degree differential, given your advice above, and this still happens. I'll keep an eye on it and see if it changes when the weather gets a little warmer, since only that and the installation of the Varivent is what changed. Maybe that's the culprit. (Ps I sent you a PM not sure if you saw it)

Thanks all

Fred · February 2017

@heatinghelp819 , I haven't gotten a PM ??

heatinghelp819 · February 2017

@fred hmm I sent you a message through this site on the 31st...

Fred · February 2017

@heatinghelp819 , I just checked again. I don't have a message from you. Actually I haven't received a message from anyone since the 23rd.

Air vents hiss whenever boiler is working

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