Boiler replacement

mkdav

I plan on replacing my 34 year old burnham with a slantfin when the winter is over here in NE . I want to use the existing piping . The main has parallel return but is pitched its highest away from boiler . Is this a concern ? Would appreciate the help .

Fred

If it's a parallel return, the main(s) should be highest at the boiler and pitch down from there until it reaches the end of the main where it either drops to a wet return, below the boiler's water line and the condensate returns to the boiler via that wet return or the main loops back towards the boiler as a Dry return and either drops down to a short wet return at the boiler or drops into a wet return somewhere along the way.
If your main piping is currently lowest at the boiler and rises from there, it sounds like it may be a counter flow, in which case it is piped differently at the boiler so as to have a drip that prevents the condensate from running back into the header and boiler risers.

Steamhead

Which Burnham do you have now? Which Slant/Fin do you want to use?

mkdav

Thanks for the response, this house was built in 1920 . Bought it in 1992 and the heat has always been great from this burnham 404 b ,266 sq ft steam 105, 000 btu .1983 by the way. I patched a hole in the boiler about 3 yrs ago and recently overfilled the boiler and now having to add water (fill it) every day on very cold days around zero . Not many yet but February is coming . I bought the slant fin 120 and hoping to do the work during the summer. The piping pitched toward the boiler has a dry return also . There are 5 rads in close proximity to boiler and only 2 at end of main which is roughly 30' at best and maybe the reason for not changing pitch on the install of the burnham . Have read a lot here and enjoy all the steam talk . I want to add the dropped header on new install , hoping not having to do all the pipe over , thoughts ? Thanks again.

kcopp

Did you measure out the radiation to make sure you purchased the proper size boiler?

mkdav

I did not , first mistake I suppose . The slant fin 100 was less btu than existing one and 120 was just over . Adequate heat is present in house . Will do math now .

JUGHNE

Is this a one pipe or two pipe radiator system?
You could have a 2 pipe counterflow.

mkdav

It's one pipe, there are 7 rads all 3 column EDR calc 190 sq ft rads x 240 for steam 45, 0000 btu . Steam btu on new slant fin is 73,000 the old was 63,000. Spacious one floor living cape 9 ' ceilings . Did I double down ?

JUGHNE

So you have a house built In 1920 (after the 1918 Flu). The rads EDR will only deliver 45,600 BTU for heating.
Where in Nebraska are you?
It must be a small house as it seems short of EDR for the time frame. Most were overheated at that time.
That is enough heat for most houses but most steam heated houses would have a lot more EDR piped into them. (From what I have seen).

Could you post pictures of the existing nameplate and your new nameplate? Some of the boiler & piping also would be good also.

BobC

My house (Boston area) was built at about the same time and has a little over 200EDR for a 2 story house with about 1100 sq ft of living space. On a design day it had a hard time keeping up with the heat loss until it was insulated.

Some builder were watching their pennies back then.

Bob

mkdav

Sorry NE was for New England , Boston . My house is brick and has some insulation added with updates to kitchen , bath and a bedroom . Attic is cold. And certainly needs addressing for heat retention between ceiling or to insulate roof attic as hot. again current system seems to be Satisfying demand and economical . Does anyone see a disadvantage to choosing the slant fin . Will try to post pic . Thanks again

mkdav

Fred

Aside from the proposed boiler seeming to be way too big for the connected EDR it seems to be an OK boiler from a pretty good company. The only comments I've heard is that it seems difficult to get a stable water line on some of their boiler models. They do seem to stand behind their warranties. Have you alreay purchased the Slant Finn or are you really shopping? If you haven't purchased, you really need to retink sizing. The way you have calculated your BTU need, even adding the standard 33% Piping and Pick-up factor to your EDR brings you to about 60,000 BTUs. The proposed Slant finn is about 40% oversized. The old boiler was in the ball park.

mkdav

Yes , the slant fin is staring the burnham down . In the basement. I'm I that far off or is this doable?

JUGHNE

Your near boiler piping needs some work. Taller risers.
The pressure relief valve should be rotated 90 degrees, bottom down. You probably know all this for your new boiler install.

A solid base under the burners is usually required for proper combustion air flow.

Measure the existing water line off the old floor and record it somewhere (benchmark).

Don't forget a skim port.

Just so you know, if you wonder about my EDR question.
Boston design temp is +9 degrees.....Nebraska is -4 degrees.
Boston heating degree days about 5,800
Nebraska is about 7000.
So your house would be cold here.....probably OK there.

Nameplates??

Fred

You are pretty far off. If you could exchange it, that would be best. It will short cycle on pressure. If you have no option to exchange it and decide to move forward with that boiler, consider using a 2 stage gas valve. On the lower stage, that may get you down into the range that works for you. make sure you vent the mains to the fullest possible so as to minimize the amount of time the boiler has to run to push air out of the mains. Do what you can to balance all the radiators so they all get steam at about the same time. Do not use any set-backs that would cause the boiler to run for an extended period of time to bring the house back up to temp. If you use the 2 stage gas valve, you need to get a Pro in to set it up properly and do the combustion tests to ensure it that it is optimum. That will require the use of vaporstats instead of the Pressuretrol that came with the system.

nicholas bonham-carter

I'm not sure how good for the boiler would be the close proximity to a cat litter box. The fumes may set up some graphitic corrosion.
It would be better not have an oversized boiler, which will short-cycle its way to an earlier grave, and burn extra gas while doing so.--NBC

Abracadabra

I think you might be miscalculating your radiator's EDR.
Got a pic of radiators?

mkdav

Litter box is a couple feet from boiler , looks closer in pic .
All my radiators are the same type except bath , small and square . 3 have 4 sec there is a 6 ,5 , 9 sec .which is seven total . Would appreciate a EDR correction . Thanks

Fred

Each of those sections should be 5 sq. ft per section. Those 6 rads total 160 + the bathroom rad.

mkdav

So if calculation stands at 63,000 and slant fin is 73000 . Would you recommend an alternate boiler for proper sizing

Fred

With the 160 EDR for the 6 rads you listed and adding another 20 EDR for the bathroom rad, I come up with about 43,200 BTU's and adding a piping and pick-up factor of 33% (which many believe is too much but it is standard) I get about 57,500 BTU's.
A couple more questions, Is that boiler you bought a steam boiler? Is it a Galaxy? If it is, it should have the square feet of steam rating on the plate, on the boiler. What does that say. I am not sure why we are converting the EDR to BTU's, not that that is a problem but the Sq.Ft rating on the boiler plate already has the 33% piping and pick up factor built into it and that Sq. Ft. of rating is a total for radiators to be connected to the boiler. At 73, 000 BTU, it is already about 25% over the EDR and piping and pick-up factor. If the boiler has a DOE of something even greater, that boiler is even more over-sized. And we need to make sure it is configured for steam and not hot water.
What is the DOE rating on that boiler? I'm almost feeling like we are trying to force fit that boiler into your home. Let's start with all the facts and see if/how it can work.

New England SteamWorks

Fred said:

A couple more questions, Is that boiler you bought a steam boiler? Is it a Galaxy? .

Good Lord! If it is indeed a Galaxy, run! Exchange at all cost.

mkdav

Ok here is some pic of both plates

Fred

@RI_SteamWorks It is a Galaxy. @mkdav , the Sq. ft of steam rating on that boiler is 304. That means it is designed for 304 EDR (connected radiation) plus an additional 33% or 101 EDR for piping and pick-up factor. The Slant-finn is about 69% oversized. 304 divided by 180 (your EDR) = 1.69%. The piping and Pick-up factor is the difference between the 97,000 BTU and the 73,000 BTU numbers. It is just too big for your needs.

Jamie Hall

Actually, as I read the plate -- which is clear as mud -- the 304 includes the pickup factor. No matter -- either way it is way oversized for the load.

Don't feel bad, @mkdav -- a lot of professionals make the same mistake of sizing a replacement boiler based on what's there rather than actually measuring up what should be there. I just hope you can return it for a more suitably sized one.

mkdav

And so was the previous .i guess . I need to look for something smaller. I appreciate all your help . Thanks

JUGHNE

How tall are your CI rads? Maybe that was mentioned but I missed it. How tall is the bath rad and how about a picture of it.
This is something that should get nailed down at this point.

That boiler is a lot heavier going up the stairs than going down.

Steamhead

Any rooms that don't have radiators? If so, maybe it's time to add them.............. then you might not need to find a smaller boiler.

Fred

They look like the 38" tall ones. That's what I used to calculate the 5 EDR per section.

mkdav

The bath rad isn't going to sway the steam gods in my favor,and the rads are 38" . The attic is the only place to add. Maybe 400 sq ft if finished . Can't go there . Want to run forced hot water in basement but that doesn't change formula I think . And reviewing what has been already posted , should be in th 55-60,000 btu range?

Fred

mkdav said:

The bath rad isn't going to sway the steam gods in my favor,and the rads are 38" . The attic is the only place to add. Maybe 400 sq ft if finished . Can't go there . Want to run forced hot water in basement but that doesn't change formula I think . And reviewing what has been already posted , should be in th 55-60,000 btu range?

To avoid confusion, when selecting a replacement boiler, use the Sq. Ft. of steam rating on the boiler plate. If you match that to your connected EDR, you will have all your radiation and piping and pick-up factors already in that number.

mkdav

When online I don't see the steam rating in specs . Or am I not looking in the right spot ?

New England SteamWorks

mkdav said:

When online I don't see the steam rating in specs . Or am I not looking in the right spot ?

Fred

Search on Steam boilers. Here is an example of the WM steam boiler brochure. Look under the "Ratings chart. It shows the Sq. Ft. of steam for each boiler model:
http://www.weil-mclain.com/sites/default/files/field-file/eg-brochure_1.pdf

mkdav

There pics of the two boilers currently in my basement . When searching a website selling boilers the spec sheet doesn't seem to give the steam rating , or am I looking in the wrong place

Fred

Here is Burnham's Data sheet. Sq. Ft. is on page 2:
https://file.ac/7oQ_P_rK-X4/Independence Product Data Sheet.pdf

Here is Slant Finn. There steam ratings are on page 4
http://www.slantfin.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Galaxy-Catalog-Sheet-816.pdf

mkdav

Thanks everyone .

Gordo

@RI_SteamWorks : I take it you are not a big fan of the Galaxy.

Would you care to share your experience(s)?

We have very little experience with the Galaxy and would like to learn from others such as yourself if there are any pitfalls we should avoid.

KC_Jones

mkdav said:

The bath rad isn't going to sway the steam gods in my favor,and the rads are 38" . The attic is the only place to add. Maybe 400 sq ft if finished . Can't go there . Want to run forced hot water in basement but that doesn't change formula I think . And reviewing what has been already posted , should be in th 55-60,000 btu range?

If you can get a smaller boiler that would be ideal no matter what.

That being said don't forget you can run a hot water zone off a steam boiler. If you are doing this now or later you may want to factor that into your replacement. Meaning plan your piping to either have it from the start or allow it to be easily added later. Forward thinking is typically never bad.