cold home in utah

georgebalotes

greetings all.I live in a small one floor older house at 5280 elevation in utah.there is an natural gas fired american standard hydronic baseboard hot water heat system from around 1970 in an open room ,not a tight small space with a ceiling mount expansion tank here that usually has just purred along with no problems and kept all the rooms warm without breaking the bank until december 2016 when the taco circulating pump became noisy and overheated . the local hvac man that has been taking care of the system for 19 years determined it had failed and a new taco 0010-f3 pump was installed.the system was drained, flushed, filled with fresh water, air bled and started up.the system cycled and the pipes became hot but the tempature of the home dropped 1 degree per hour overnight while running constantly. we are having another mild winter and there are several small electric heaters to warm the rooms in use while we are having this main heater problem and there is a wood stove as a backup but we have no wood this year as the goverment and enviro wackos have made it an expensive item .the system was checked for air and back flushed with fresh water again that showed no bubbles or sediment. the system was started again with the same result. a cold house while the gas boiler and pump ran like normal. during this time the thermostat ,aquastat and all the other controls were not changed the system cycled like normal but the rooms were cold.at this same time we noticed that the new pump became the hottest part of the system.with a non contact handheld infared digital device and those small round you can tape to a pipe or test your roast we have been checking temps around the system.the thermostat is set at a constant 72f, the boiler gauge ( that was replaced recently ) shows between 140 and 200 f depending ,with 20 psi while running. the top water line leaving the boiler is usually 155f,the low copper line bringing fluid back is usually 145 to 150,the impeller housing is 150 to 165 while the electric motor housing seems seething hot at 165 to 170f. I do not remember the previous motor that lasted 18 years ever getting too hot to touch until it started making noises and went bad. I have talked to the taco factory customer relations department about the hot pump where they say that thermal efficiencies and movement motion etc with a three warranty from the seller not our problem right. the system has no leaks, is not making noises,runs constantly,the pump seems way too hot and does not keep the house warm,while before it did so quite well.thank you. GB

Jamie Hall

What model was the old pump?

hot_rod

Usually when a pump gets excessively hot, much hotter that the fluid running through it, it is not flowing.

An air lock is a common cause. Are frozen pipes a possibility?
Pump could be stuck, or a broken shaft. Is it flowing the same direction as the previous pump?

Can you hear water flowing or air bubbles in the fin tube?

If nothing else has changes, just a like pump replacement, start there. You may need to do another good purge.

If it is a monoflo system, they can be challenging to purge.

Gordy

IN checking temps did you check base board convector temps?

Same circulator size?

If convectors are cold there is no flow. If there is no flow see @hot rod post. Bad circ, air bound circ.

mikemc

sounds like HOTROD hit the nail on the head. why haven't we heard back from homeowner? hmmmmm???
I would have been frantic by now if it wasn't fixed!
could there be another issue?

georgebalotes

the previous pump was the same model,it seems that I did not click on the post comment button yesterday.

georgebalotes

the system is not a remodel or retrofit. no tees just elbows with the bleed screw caps on the ends.a person can feel the water circulating through the system from cool to warm through the entire house at the convectors.the purges showed little air and no debris. to creaking popping gurgling noises.luckily it has been a mild winter so far.all the pipes under the house are insulated or in heat tape and insulated. no leaks or frozen issues. there are small portable electric heaters and a wood burning stove we have used to warm the home so far, buy we had planned to just use the hydronic system this season and that is not working out !! we have tried hot water temps from 120 to 190f at the boiler discharge and the same degree increase shows when checking the impeller housing and the pump motor.today I ran the system in the afternoon , outdoor temp 48f when inside the house was 70f,the boiler guage showing 15psi 160 to 190f in the tank.145 at the first convecter,138f at the second,120f at the last until the gas jets go off. then the pipes will show 145 all through the system and the lmpeller housing will show 168f and the electric motor will show 188f or more and there will be a too hot burning smell.I placed a small low volume blowing air at the pump for a while to see what would happen without any miracle. the strange thing is that for years everything just purred along with no problems. and I did not have an overheated pump,noises and smells from it. I am considering getting a wilo or bell and gosset next. your thoughts ? thank you.

hot_rod

You mentioned the boiler temperature swings from 140- 190? if the system is calling for heat typically a 15- 20 differential between boiler off and on. 160- 180 is a common on/ off range for baseboard systems.

It could be the boiler temperature aqua stat is defective. You will not get a lot of output from fin tube at 140, especially if it was designed around 180 SWT.

If the boiler runs to 190 that pump will be at least that temperature maybe 10- 20° warmer, so it will be very hot to the touch, and may smell hot.

If the boiler control is in need of a replacement, consider a control with out door reset function. That function allows the boiler to run at the temperature required to meet the heat load under changing conditions. It greatly limits boiler cycling, provides best comfort, and can save some fuel $$.

Gordy

In going back to your initial post. It seems the system performed well before the circ failed. Now that the identical circulator was chosen for the replacement the system does not perform as before. Also this has been a milder winter correct?


It is evident you have series baseboard with the step down in supply temps in the baseboard sequence coldest the end of the loop.

The boiler supply temps have me perplexed as you should be seeing 180 at the start of the baseboard loop at least however you say you have 160-190 "at the tank" a little perplexed on the tank statement also. So your losing 15-45 degrees before it gets to the first convector?

Gordy

Some pics would be helpful of boiler room, and convector piping.

lchmb

why would you use a 0010 on a baseboard system? I would think this more on a monoflo system... I would be curious to see the close boiler piping and baseboard..maybe piping as it goes around the house...

georgebalotes

georgebalotes

thanks everyone.

Gordy

That is your "new" circulator??

georgebalotes

no of course not .that is the old one. the whole area is much cleaner now.ha.