Cyclegard CG400-2090

rdsusi

Having a problem with my brand new steam boiler, installed in the spring. Was installed by the contractor with the cyclegard CG400-2090. The system runs at very low pressure, the guage never moves, and I have not had a problem until this cold snap. The issue, as the cyclegard cycles every 10 minutes, the system looses it head of steam, and two of my radiators do not receive any steam. I have changed the vent valves to the the largest one I can find, my help. My old system only checked for low water when the burner was done cycling, and this was never a problem, but now my kitchen is cold, actually freezing. I think the cyclegard is the problem, what do you think, and what suggestions may you have?

Ironman

Replace it with the SafeGaurd 400; you won't even have to change the probe. Same control without that obnoxious feature.

KC_Jones

Baffles me why the manufacturers think this is a good idea. As Ironman said ditch that thing for a SafGard.

Also as an FYI both safeties are technically checking for low water constantly, the cyclegard actually shuts the burner down to let the water "settle down". It isn't really a function to check for low water as that is happening all the time. Many of us feel it's a function to help cover up bad installs, but as you are seeing it also screws up the system operation.

rbeck

while I agree the CG-450 can be a problem heating radiators further down the line due to the test feature. The test feature was created to avoid the control seeing foam and mistaken it for water. when the control shuts down the foam if present will collapse very quickly.
Other reasons you can encounter rads not heating even with the CG-450 control.
1. No steam main insulation. Should be a minimum of 1" if fiberglass. All steam mains should be insulated the entire length of the main.
2. Wet steam, equates to near boiler piping
3. Slow/No main line steam vents on one pipe systems or slow/non-functioning radiator vents.
4. 2-pipe systems bad/improperly operating steam traps
5. Low gas pressure or too small of an oil nozzle
6. boiler too small (never happens)
7. boiler surging
8. Short cycling off one of the controls
I am sure someone else can add more to this list.

KC_Jones

If your boiler is foaming you have a problem, that for me still equates to a poor installation OR a poor commissioning of the system. It's a band aid to cover up poor practices by bad contractors to protect the manufacturer. Instead of covering up bad contractors we should be calling them out.

Plenty of boilers out there without this control that have zero issues.

Fred

@rbeck OP posted that he had a problem with the Cyclegard constantly interrupting a heating cycle. He didn't suggest he had any other problems. The Cyclegard is not a very good cover-up for a poor boiler installation or water problems.

Ironman

@rbeck
By designing that control to do that, you're trying to reach the lowest common denominator.

It makes about as much since if I started on a two hour drive, but got out every ten minutes to check the oil because I didn't trust the oil gauge.

Stop selling steam boilers to hacks that don't know how to install or service them, and this problem, plus dozens of others, are immediately solved.

ChrisJ

Ironman said:

@rbeck
By designing that control to do that, you're trying to reach the lowest common denominator.

It makes about as much since if I started on a two drive, but got out every ten minutes to check the oil because I didn't trust the oil gauge.

Stop selling steam boilers to hacks that don't know how to install or service them and this problem, plus dozens of others, are immediately solved.

Well,
Technically the oil gauge shows oil pressure and if your oil ran low enough for that to drop, your engine is already ruined. Technically.

Let's use the water temp gauge instead.

That said,
You're 100% right regarding the Cycle Guard. I would never use one. If a standard probe type LWCO can't be trusted I guess it's time to go back to Ol reliable MM #67.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

I've explained the rationalization of the Cyclegard before on here, but, apparently few want to believe it.

The situation has nothing do with with hacks and nothing to do with the lowest common denominator and nothing to do with covering up bad installs.


After speaking directly to the manufacturer, the issue is relatively simple.

The boiler cannot accurately check for low water while it is operating. The surface is roiling and the bubbles on the surface can and will keep the boiler running despite the fact that the water level is quite a bit below the surface. You can get into a situation where the water level is several inches below the probe and the boiler continues to run.

Now, design you boiler with the minimum possible water content for efficiency and you get very concerned that the boiler can run out of water if it must run for an extended period of time (say one hour or more).

So, you setup your control to periodically stop the boiler and check the level. This avoids any risk of a warranty call for a boiler that ran itself out of water and continued to run.

Why the check every 10 minutes? No idea on that.............ridiculous overkill. 30 minutes would have been realistic.

So,
Basically, insist on a MM #67 because they do not have this problem, and do not have to shut the boiler off?

Commercial boilers have a tube in them to provide a "calm area" for the sensor.

Ironman

Hatt,
Are you stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime? What I mean is this: what's gonna cause a clean boiler to foam to the extent that "the water level is several inches below the probe"? The manufacturer may push that line, but I'm having a hard time swallowing it.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

Ironman said:

Hatt,
Are you stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime? What I mean is this: what's gonna cause a clean boiler to foam to the extent that "the water level is several inches below the probe"? The manufacturer may push that line, but I'm having a hard time swallowing it.

Foam has nothing to do with it. The water level is several inches below the point where the probe sees water. The probe responds to the collapsing bubbles and won't trip until those bubbles are no longer present.

Take a look at a steam boiler with a probe. If you know the probe location, observe it when the water gets down to the probe. No shutdown. Now observe it go below the probe. No shutdown. Now observe it go nearly 2" below the probe. No shutdown. Now, stop the boiler and the LWCO immediately feeds.

Try it.

Correct. The #67 does not use a probe and does not have this issue. But, it requires monthly attention by the homeowner. From a manufacturer standpoint, in this society, that's not acceptable. It's only a durable product if it is maintained religiously.

Monthly?

I highly recommend a MM #67 be dumped weekly, not monthly.


instead of making a LWCO that interrupts the heating cycle for no reason, install the probe 2" higher?

Abracadabra

ChrisJ said:

instead of making a LWCO that interrupts the heating cycle for no reason, install the probe 2" higher?

wouldn't that just overfill the boiler?

rbeck

KCJones wrote;
If your boiler is foaming you have a problem, that for me still equates to a poor installation OR a poor commissioning of the system. It's a band aid to cover up poor practices by bad contractors to protect the manufacturer. Instead of covering up bad contractors we should be calling them out.
Plenty of boilers out there without this control that have zero issues.

I never said he is Foaming I simply was giving ideas as what it could be. Seems just that one item was selected and stomped on.
There are also plenty of boilers out there working fine with the control. I am not defending or promoting the control I am just stating facts.
I installed plenty of steam boilers in the Harrisburg, PA area with this control and only had issue's with a few where the boiler could not heat all the radiators and I changed the control to one that did not shut down.
I changed more of them over time for not waiting the 10 minutes, where they would cycle off every 3 or 5 or whatever amount of minutes.
The control was used more on oil than gas products due to much higher flame temperatures and making steam much faster.

ChrisJ

Abracadabra said:

ChrisJ said:

instead of making a LWCO that interrupts the heating cycle for no reason, install the probe 2" higher?

wouldn't that just overfill the boiler?

No,
The most common problem with autofills is them not filling to the proper operating level. The VXT has settings to force it to "overfill" past the LWCO a certain amount, you'd just reduce this.

ChrisJ

Oil fired boilers do not automatically make steam faster than gas. This would be related to the quantity of water, the temperature of the water and the output of the burner, not the flame temperature.

Interesting write up on flame color and temperature.

https://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=1545

Fred

We all know we prefer the Safegard, that does not shut the boiler down at 10 minute intervals. I'm not sure what the issue is. You have two options, shut down every 10 minutes or don't shut down at intervals. I know which one works for me, if I were to use a probe LWCO, but I have an MM#67 and I am very happy with it. If you have a problem draining a quart or two of water every week, then your boiler is probably being neglected in other areas of maintenance, as well. JMHO

ChrisJ

I'd think an automatic dumping #67 would make more sense than a probe that shuts the boiler off every 10 minutes.