Help identify main vent

Motorapido

Can anybody identify this steam main vent? I cannot see any manufacturer name or sizing information stamped into it. This vent is at the end of a branch main, just before the main drops to a wet return. It is mounted on a pipe that raises the vent 6 inches above the main. This is on a one-pipe steam residential system. The vent at the end of the primary steam main is a Hoffman 16. I will be replacing the Hoffman with at least one Big Mouth vent and will consider doing the same with this vent, but I would like to identify what this vent is before proceeding.

Steamhead

It's an old Dole, a #4 I believe. These are typically way undersized for the steam mains I find them on. How long is the branch main and what pipe size?

Motorapido

The primary steam main measures 2.75 inches outer diameter (measured in a little gap between insulation, so this is the actual pipe outer diameter measurement and not the measurement including insulation) and this steam main is 97 feet long from the boiler to the point where it drops to become the wet return. This primary steam main has 11 pipes connected to it, to feed radiators on the first and second floor of the house. There are 6 radiators on the first floor served by this primary steam main and 4 radiators on the second floor served by pipes connecting down to this primary steam main. The primary main is vented with a Hoffman 16. I intend to replace it with at least one Big Mouth.

A 75 foot steam branch taps off the primary main and this steam branch pipe measures 2 inches outer diameter. This steam branch leaves the primary steam main about 18 feet before the primary main ends. This branch is vented with the Dole in the photo. The purpose of this branch is to take steam to 5 radiators in a one-story back bedroom/bathroom of the house which is built over a crawlspace that connects to the full basement. The bedroom/bathroom served by this branch off the main measures 400 square feet. This branch steam pipe is 2 inches outer diameter. It appears that this one-story downstairs back bedroom/bathroom are original to the house and not an addition, based upon my inspection inside the crawlspace. I suppose they built that one-story bedroom/bathroom over a crawlspace instead of extending the entire full basement, to save excavation costs. This room and its radiators do not heat as much or as quickly as the radiators served by the primary steam main, despite my replacement of the vents on the 5 radiators in this bedroom/bathroom.

For what it's worth, I should mention that it appears that four radiator-feed pipes have been removed from the primary steam main over the years, due to some remodeling that changed a few walls and room layouts. 2 removals look like they were done a few years ago when the prior owner remodeled a kitchen, based on nice clean teflon tape on the plugs screwed into the elbows coming off the main. The other two plugged elbows that come off the primary steam main appear to be very old. Those 2 plugs are terribly rusty and their exposed threads show no sign of teflon tape or pipe dope and those threads are also very rusty.

Based upon this info, what would you recommend for venting the main and the branch main?

Steamhead

That's a lot of pipe! You need some serious venting.

The 97-foot main is 2-1/2" inside diameter. 2-1/2" pipe contains 0.03 cubic feet per foot, so that gives 2.91 cubic feet there. But the branch main comes off 18 feet before the end of the main, so that drops us to 2.37 cubic feet to be vented through the branch- see next paragraph.

The 75-foot branch is probably 1-1/2" inside, and should be considered an extension of the main. One foot of 1-1/2" contains .012 cubic feet, so we have 0.9 cubic foot and a grand total of 3.27 cubic feet of main to vent.

If you're using Gorton #2 vents, you'd start with three of these at the end of the 75-foot main. For the remaining 18 feet of the 2-1/2" main, a Gorton #1 will do. You can fine-tune the venting speed by adding or subtracting vents as needed.

I would, however, double-check the outside diameter of the branch main. 1-1/2" sounds a bit small for what it's doing. If the outside diameter of that branch is a bit more than 2", say 2-1/4" or so, then the inside diameter is 2". In that case, it contains .023 cubic feet per running foot, giving a total of 1.725 cubic feet, and a grand total of 4.095 cubic feet. That brings us up to four Gorton #2 vents at the end of the branch.

I can't find the venting capacities quickly for the Barnes & Jones vents, so someone else will have to post them.

Motorapido

Steamhead, you're the best. Thank you. I'll recheck the branch measurement using a caliper this time, instead of eyeballing a tape measure. Meanwhile, a question. When you suggest 4 Gorton 2s at the end of the branch main but just one Gorton 1 at the end of the primary main, I assume that this indicates that the calculation for venting the branch takes into account the entire length of the branch plus the length of the main that feeds it from where it begins at the boiler. Those 4 Gorton 2s would be venting 16 times more in total than the Gorton 1 at the end of the main that you suggest. I would have guessed that the venting requirement at the end of the primary main would be greater than the venting requirement at the end of the branch, unless the calculation for venting the branch includes both the branch length plus the length of the section of the primary main that feeds it.

Steamhead

Motorapido said:

..... unless the calculation for venting the branch includes both the branch length plus the length of the section of the primary main that feeds it.

It does. See the following:

Steamhead said:

The 97-foot main is 2-1/2" inside diameter. 2-1/2" pipe contains 0.03 cubic feet per foot, so that gives 2.91 cubic feet there. But the branch main comes off 18 feet before the end of the main, so that drops us to 2.37 cubic feet to be vented through the branch..............

Sailah

The big mouth vents 3.6CFM at 3 ozs. The vari vent vents 0-2.5CFM at 3ozs. Gorton #2 is 2.4 CFM at 3 ozs.

Steamhead

Thanks, @Sailah . How about at 1 ounce, which is how I sized the Gortons?

BobC

A bigmouth equals two Gorton #2's and they cost about the same so it would save some money to use the BigMouth vents.

Bob

Sailah

According to @gerry gill at 1 oz, the

Gorton #2 is 1.1CFM
BJ Vari Vent is 1.22 CFM but variable from 0-1.22
BJ Big Mouth is 2.0 CFM

I was also incorrect at 3ozs re the Gorton

Gorton #2 is 2.2CFM
Vari Vent is 2.53 CFM
Big Mouth is 3.6 CFM

https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/editor/y4/8thlt8ibf6ef.pdf

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/158197/latest-round-of-air-vent-testing-thank-you-barnes-jones/p1

Motorapido

Economics question: I can buy four Gorton #2s for $93 on Amazon. I would need to buy 2.6 of the Big Mouth vents to achieve the venting of the 4 Gorton #2s, which rounds up to 3 of those Big Mouths. The Big Mouths are $75/each, so three are $225. Any reason, other than the potential extra longevity (and the inarguable beauty and craftsmanship and repairability) of the Big Mouths to spend $132 more to buy the Big Mouths compared to buying the Gortons?

Another question: When I buy T's and elbows and nipples to install the vents, can I use black pipe, or must I buy brass? Is there a specific metal alloy called for?

Steamhead

Black steel pipe is fine.

And we do not discuss pricing on this forum.

Fred

Four Gorton 2's @ 93.97 Each

Steamhead

From the top of this page:

"In fairness to all, we don't discuss pricing on the Wall. Thanks for your cooperation."

Fred

@Steamhead , on a post from Erin a few weeks ago, she said published pricing and generally available prices were OK to discuss, just not specific quotes.

Motorapido

Sorry about running afoul of the forum rules. I thought they were to prohibit people from posting for-sale items or people offering services for hire and stating prices, rather than mentioning the listed prices on common items and parts. I'm new to this forum, but a regular on various others, and I do understand and respect the importance of forum rules. I'm gonna buy me two Big Mouths now for my 75 feet of main and a Gorton #1 for the 18 foot section, plus some black pipe fittings and nipples from Home Despot. Thanks again, everybody. Great knowledge on this forum. I really appreciate it.

Sailah

Motorapido said:

Economics question. Any reason, other than the potential extra longevity (and the inarguable beauty and craftsmanship and repairability) of the Big Mouths to spend $132 more to buy the Big Mouths compared to buying the Gortons?

Yes, we send out free calculators with every purchase! (Kidding)

4x93=$372
3x75=$225

I would suggest 2 Big Mouths and 1 Vari Vent for your smaller main. The Big Mouth is 3/4" and the Vari Vent is 1/2". The reason for the Vari Vent is that it allows you to tailor the venting time of the smaller main to match the other. It's as well made as they get.

If you order through Heating Help it helps keep the heat on in here.

http://astore.amazon.com/heatinghelp-20?_encoding=UTF8&node=13

Motorapido

Oh, yet another question. I see that the Gorton #1 is listed as IPS thread and not NPT. I thought all the fittings on a steam system are NPT. Doesn't IPS require a rubber washer or the equivalent to seal the connection? Could the Amazon listing that shows the threads on the Gorton #1 as IPS be incorrect? Are they actually NPT?

Fred

Is the Vari Vent going to be in the HH store too @Sailah ?

DanHolohan

I would buy the Big Mouths because Peter Owens gives superb service. That's worth a lot.

Sailah

Thanks Dan

Fred said:

Is the Vari Vent going to be in the HH store too @Sailah ?

That's up to @Erin Holohan Haskell I believe every time someone here buys one through HH, they get a referral. Which I think is great.

I know the Big Mouth gets all the attention but I'm most proud of the Vari Vent, it's a perfect compliment to the Big Mouth and gets you the ability to match the venting times on smaller mains.

No slouch either in terms of CFM.

Steamhead

Hatterasguy said:

Steamhead said:

From the top of this page:

"In fairness to all, we don't discuss pricing on the Wall. Thanks for your cooperation."

You really ought to understand the law before you try to enforce it.

@Hatterasguy , that's what it says on the page in black and yellow. I am sure if @Erin Holohan Haskell wants to allow published list prices, she'll change it. In the meantime, we would do well to follow the present directions.

Steamhead

Hatterasguy said:

Steamhead said:

Hatterasguy said:

Steamhead said:

From the top of this page:

"In fairness to all, we don't discuss pricing on the Wall. Thanks for your cooperation."

You really ought to understand the law before you try to enforce it.

@Hatterasguy , that's what it says on the page in black and yellow. I am sure if @Erin Holohan Haskell wants to allow published list prices, she'll change it. In the meantime, we would do well to follow the present directions.

She already clarified it in response to a similar question. Published prices on purchased items are permitted. Estimates of a complete installation including labor are not.

Where?

Steamhead

But as you see, she hasn't changed the yellow banner to reflect that. So at least for now, at the top of every page it says:

"In fairness to all, we don't discuss pricing on the Wall. Thanks for your cooperation."

It makes no exceptions. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch. And for the record, the other heating boards I participate in have similar rules. So this could be called an industry standard.

It's Erin's site, and I'm sure she has her reasons. If she sees fit, she'll change the yellow banner. If not, she won't. Most longtime members of this board have no problem with not discussing any pricing whatsoever. It's a good principle to follow.

Motorapido

Sailah said:

Thanks Dan

Fred said:

Is the Vari Vent going to be in the HH store too @Sailah ?

That's up to @Erin Holohan Haskell I believe every time someone here buys one through HH, they get a referral. Which I think is great.

I know the Big Mouth gets all the attention but I'm most proud of the Vari Vent, it's a perfect compliment to the Big Mouth and gets you the ability to match the venting times on smaller mains.

No slouch either in terms of CFM.

I cannot seem to find info on the Barnes and Jones Vari Vent. Are they currently available? What are the specs on them?

Motorapido

Hatterasguy said:

Motorapido said:

Oh, yet another question. I see that the Gorton #1 is listed as IPS thread and not NPT. I thought all the fittings on a steam system are NPT. Doesn't IPS require a rubber washer or the equivalent to seal the connection? Could the Amazon listing that shows the threads on the Gorton #1 as IPS be incorrect? Are they actually NPT?

IPS is "iron pipe size". Synonym of NPT "national pipe thread"

I'm still confused about this. I know that when ordering shower heads, you have to be careful to specify either IPS or NPT. I am pretty sure that at least in that application, IPS is straight thread, and not tapered like NPT, and in that application with IPS you need a sealing gasket, which isn't necessary with NPT, since NPT is self-sealing due to the taper.

Ironman

Motorapido said:

Hatterasguy said:

Motorapido said:

Oh, yet another question. I see that the Gorton #1 is listed as IPS thread and not NPT. I thought all the fittings on a steam system are NPT. Doesn't IPS require a rubber washer or the equivalent to seal the connection? Could the Amazon listing that shows the threads on the Gorton #1 as IPS be incorrect? Are they actually NPT?

IPS is "iron pipe size". Synonym of NPT "national pipe thread"

I'm still confused about this. I know that when ordering shower heads, you have to be careful to specify either IPS or NPT. I am pretty sure that at least in that application, IPS is straight thread, and not tapered like NPT, and in that application with IPS you need a sealing gasket, which isn't necessary with NPT, since NPT is self-sealing due to the taper.

'IPS" and "NPT" are the same thing. The are both tapered American pipe threads.

" BSPT" British Standard Pipe Threads are not tapered.

You asked a question from pros who've been doing this all their adult life; trust their answer.

Here's a link to the VariVent:

https://www.amazon.com/Barnes-Jones-BJ-2VV-NPT-Vari-Vent/dp/B01GQP0DQ8/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1483969257&sr=8-1&keywords=barnes+and+jones+vari+vent

Erin Holohan Haskell

Just want to clarify our rule on discussing pricing: We can mention prices for products if the prices are available online for all to see. We just can't discuss what one contractor charges vs. another to install said products because that could lead to price fixing, which is illegal. Thanks!

Sailah

Motorapido said:

Sailah said:

Thanks Dan

Fred said:

Is the Vari Vent going to be in the HH store too @Sailah ?

That's up to @Erin Holohan Haskell I believe every time someone here buys one through HH, they get a referral. Which I think is great.

I know the Big Mouth gets all the attention but I'm most proud of the Vari Vent, it's a perfect compliment to the Big Mouth and gets you the ability to match the venting times on smaller mains.

No slouch either in terms of CFM.

I cannot seem to find info on the Barnes and Jones Vari Vent. Are they currently available? What are the specs on them?

The Vari Vent was created with extensive input from Gerry Gill as a way to throttle the venting capacity to match the time of the longer or larger mains. If you put a larger wide open vent like the Big Mouth on a smaller main, it'll vent too fast and bias the steam to the smaller main.

The Vari Vent is all stainless, 1/2" NPT, and has a threaded cap to allow infinite adjustment. Vents 0-2.53 CFM @ 3 ozs vs 3.6 CFM for the Big Mouth. I believe Amazon has them, I sent some to them. If not I have them here.

Erin Holohan Haskell

Here's a link to the Vari Vent in our store: http://astore.amazon.com/heatinghelp-20/detail/B01GQP0DQ8

Fred

Thank you @Erin Holohan Haskell !