This poor old steamer!

Tom_133

Hey all you steam fans out there,

Let me preface this conversation with: I don't typically work on steam systems at all.

That said, my 70 year old aunt called and said her Smith steam boiler which heats her 4 unit apt house is not holding water. So as a good nephew I went over there and found many holes and leaks in pipe under the water line on the boiler. So I replace all of that and cleaned a lot of thick sludge out of the piping, as best as I could. First question- what causes all that sludge and the pipe to be eaten up like they are?

Also, she wants to upgrade this system. She would really like the tenants to pay for their own heat, so Rinnais maybe in order. I wanted to run the pictures by you guys and ask if this mess is worth fixing. I FULLY UNDERSTAND ITS PIPED POORLY but can I repipe it and have it work well, and make it work properly with all 4 apt without the 3rd floor opening all her windows? I assume all the valves on the radiators need to be swapped due to not closing fully.

My only other option is to zone the place in HW and do a central boiler and just have her raise the rents. I am open to all suggestions. I feel there would be no replacement for the comfort you get from the steam.

Steamhead

It will be way too expensive to tear out and replace everything. She might do Rinnais or something similar for the hot faucet water, if there are separate gas meters for the apartments, but trying to do this with the heat is likely way out of her budget.

Is this a one-pipe or two-pipe system? That is, does each radiator have two pipes connected to it, or just one?

Eastman

What's up with the water heaters in the background? It looks like there is 3 or 4 of them.

Tom_133

Its a one pipe. Yeah there are 4 electric 40 gallon water heaters in there one for each apt. I put those in this past summer so the tenants can pay for their own hot water. It use to be off the boiler and was never done right.

I don't want to separate the steam for the 4 units, I want to just get it all working and piped properly. No more gunk in the pipes, no more decaying black iron piping and a good efficient setup.

Whats the opinion on the piping?

kcopp

The gunk is pretty normal for steam... its an open system and in corrosion all the time.
You can clean it up but it will need it yearly.
How does it run? Hammer?
Piping is a total mess.
I hate to say it but if she wants separate bills Rinnai vented space heaters are prob the best option.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Its a mess as usual. I swear it's more work to screw it all up than it is to do it right.

Is that a Smith series 19?? If it's the right size for the load you might repipe it and wash it out good who knows how long it will last? Might be worth saving it's a good boiler when properly maintained. There still made the sections and gaskets are available.

You may not have 24" from the waterline to the so called header

Fred

Old wet return pipes on steam boilers will build up that kind of sludge over the years. Many of those pipes are original to the structure and, because they are below the boiler water line, they hold water 100% of the time. Over the years they will eventually fail. When replacing them, it's a great idea to put full port valves at each end to allow you to flush the sludge out every year or two.
Impossible to tell if the near boiler piping is anywhere near correct, from these pictures but all of that can be corrected when a new boiler is installed. Just be sure to follow the manufacturer's installation instructions, which are minimum for an installation. There are many improvements that will help the system produce nice dry steam, like a drop header, pipe sizing, using the full size pipe out of the boiler, using both boiler tappings for the risers, etc. Just don't take any short cuts if you want your aunt to be happy.

Tom_133

It may be best to just do the Rinnai's and let the tenants pay for their own. Its such a tough choice, she gets a lot of heat in the basement from the big monster. She's a little old to be messing with that unit too much. She did fall and break her hip 5-6 years ago around 2am when she went down to add water!

Thanks guys

kcopp

Just make sure those rads DONT end up in a Scrap yard!!!

Eastman

If I was a renter, I'd rather have heat tied into the rent. What incentive is there for the landlord to make cost effective equipment selection and building maintenance if they're not paying for essential services?

MilanD

If it's working now and you repaired the leaks, I wouldn't do anything more but maintain and plan for propper replacement or changeover when it is needed. Is it working fine? Leave it be. Anything else will be an early expenditure with no payback.

For now, lower the op pressure, looks like it's at 5 psi! Vented correctly, it can probably operate at less than 1 psi. Then, vent the mains fast and vent the rads properly. This alone will save her a lot of fuel $ and will cost probably less than anything else she would do. A few big mouths from Amazon and new rad vents - vent-rite adjustable are most recommended http://www.hvacrsupplynow.com/VENT-RITE-1-STEAM-AIR-VALVES-ADJUSTABLE_p_1787.html. Then balance the system - this will reduce need for open windows.

Then, weekly blowdowns until all that remaining sludge is somewhat washed out. It may take all winter if thing was not done in a while.

One pic looks like there was a condensate receiver. Is that correct? If so, make sure any traps, if there are any, are functioning, and that both feed pump float switch and low water cutoff are in working order.

Steam systems, esp. with float switches, need regular blowdowns and for safety, need to be functioning properly.

My 2 cents from a homeowner point of view.

Jamie Hall

Leaks in wet return pipes are rather common, actually. One of the minor annoyances of life. Sometimes it is corrosion from the inside. Sometimes from the outside... but there. And the sludge is partly from the corrosion and partly from who knows where. It is worth arranging the cold return piping so that it is reasonably easy to flush out -- valves or T's with plugs -- and do that once in a while.

You may be able to pipe it better, and could possibly gain some efficiency that way, but I have to say that if it isn't banging... it may not be worth it.

However, the first thing to do is to make sure that the venting is really adequate. If it is two pipe, also make sure that all the traps are functioning the way they should. Then see about regulating the heat to the various units -- radiator vents or adjusting valves, as appropriate.

What controls the system? A single thermostat? Where? A timer with outdoor reset?

Unfortunately, it is remarkably difficult to separate out the heating usage for various units with steam heat.

Abracadabra

Keep the steam and make appropriate increases in rent to cover the gas. New fad that's started sprouting up in Chicago is the landlord hands the tenants the gas bill every month and make them responsible for reimbursing them for a share of the gas bill, in your case each tenant would pay 1/4 of the gas bill.

Steamhead

First thing to do is replace the vents at the ends of the steam mains with larger ones. This will make the steam distribute thru the system faster, reducing the boiler's running time.

Measure the length and diameter of each steam main and we'll tell you what you need.