Is steam moving slower than it should?

Lewis

1950 two story house with 20 windows & 5 doors. The House Radiator Measurements calculate to 195sq ft and the Oil Fired Steam Boiler, Crown Kingston KSZ100BOPZ2PSU w/ Beckett AFG Oil Burner, installed is rated at 370sq ft. My old boiler gave me quiet steam. But my new boiler had hammering all over. So, I got the installer to put a smaller nozzle in which reduced the boiler rating to 283sq ft. Now I have quiet steam. However, the smaller nozzle the installer put in is 20 degrees wider than what the Manufacture’s manual require. Installer put in Del .65/80B instead of Del .65/60W.
1.) What are the advantages and disadvantages of using a Del 0.65/80B instead of Del .65/60W?
2.) Does the Del 0.65/80B increase the sq. ft. of stream vs. the Del 0.65/60W?
3.) Would using the Del 0.65/80B reduce the heating AFUE?
4.) Could using the Del 0.65/80B affect manufacture warranty?

Main and radiator vents are all working & were replaced in 2013. Pipes are not insulated. All radiators are getting piping hot. The far radiator (end of 50ft 2” main) takes about a half-hour longer than the others do to heat. With open Main pipe—Steam vent removed, the steam takes 8 minutes to get from the top of 2” riser (before the Header) to the end of the 50ft 2” main. The pressuretrol is on 1.

Installation included New boiler header and all new near piping.
Header*.jpg shows top of 28in 2” riser, 2” horizontal header & 2” vertical header. From the vertical header, 1” Equalizer, 1.5” 45 degree take off and then into 2” take off. The 1.5” 45 degree main is ~20ft long & services 2 of the 10 radiators with Hoffman #76 on the end. 2” main is ~50ft long services 8 of the 10 radiators with Hoffman #75 on the end. The smallest nozzle rating for this boiler is 246sq ft.



I do notice that the installer’s near piping does not match the installation manual. Manual says 3” riser & header w/1.5” Equalizer and manual piping is constructed differently.

I want the boiler set up so, that it will use the least amount of oil and have the longest life while keeping the house at comfortable temperature.
5.) Could piping as per manufacture manual reduce time for the steam to travel to end of mains?
6.) Could current piping cause manufacture to valid warranty?
7.) Could this near piping be causing the boiler to run longer to heat my home?
8.) What are the advantages and disadvantages of having the 2” vs. 3” riser & header?
9.) Does using a 2” Riser &Header cause more stress on Boiler?
10.) Are there any changes I need to make to better meet my goals?
11.) Could the near piping be improved?

Thanks in advance for your help.

nicholas bonham-carter

The piping layout specified by the manufacturer in the installation manual has been designed to give the best performance, longest life, most fuel economy, etc. any deviation from those instructions will degrade the system performance.
The smaller steam supply pipe is no doubt allowing higher velocities of steam to throw lots of water up into the mains, instead of dry steam. Normally the pipe dope would be applied with the brush in the can, and not with a spatula!
One Hoffman 75 will not have enough venting capacity, so I would suggest a big mouth vent. This will let the air be pushed out quickly, with very little resistance.--NBC

JohnNY

All that boiler piping, if that's what that is, needs to be removed and re-done. Find a real installer to fabricate a proper header for that boiler.

New England SteamWorks

Do over. I'm with @JohnNY.

Sailah

He must have stock in pipe dope. Or he's a pipe dope.

EDIT: Did he really dope up the unions?

Abracadabra

omg... are you sure he used enough pipe dope? ****? Maybe he added the pipe dope after threading the fitting on?

also all that piping sucks.. If that's the work your installer performed, pretty sure he doesn't know what skimming a boiler means either...

Fred

Do you have a copy of the Installation and owner's manual? Look at it. That piping is shamefully incorrect. Enough has already been said about the pipe dope. What was he thinking?

adambnyc

That piping is SO wrong... this is a new install?

Lewis

I am asking my questions based on what I saw & read from the Manufacture manuals. This is a new install and is still under parts & labor warranty from the Company that did the installation.

Paul48

Let me guess.........You opened the manual packet, for the first time?

lchmb

I dont like to critique other's but your piping has some issues. I believe it would be in your best interest to read the installation manual...

Paul48

Did they leave you a print-out of the combustion analysis?

adambnyc

Time to call that guy back and have him redo the piping. With the near piping what it is, you've gotta have water surging and banging pipes. You have no equalizer on your header. In the second picture, that 2" tee with the 1" coming from the side, that's completely wrong. All of it's wrong.

Take a look at the book and show the installer how it's supposed to look, which will give you the minimum requirements or even better, find some of the numerous examples of a drop header on this site and have him do that.

It's clear that the installer doesn't know what he's doing. Buyer beware.

KC_Jones

I just looked up that boiler and in addition to the piping layout being wrong it's undersized. The manual specifically states 3" piping for the riser, header and system takeoff and 1 1/2" piping for the equalizer. So the installer also bushed down the boiler outlet.

Another sad thing, the manufacturer actually offers a piping kit for this boiler. If they would have bought that it would have been a no brainer to get it correct. It's really sad that people like this are charging people money and call themselves "professionals".

Oh and here is a quote from the manual, this is a list of issues they say can happen from improper near boiler piping.
Short cycling on low water
Boiler or system Flooding
Hammering
Failure to heat one or more radiators

They need to re-pipe it on their dime, it's your only hope of having any chance of it working correctly.

Lewis

Thank you all for your feedback.
I do Not have banging pipes and all of my radiators are getting piping hot. However, currently I see at least two problems with the piping. First, the Manual states just because the old piping confederation worked that is not a reason not to follow the manufacturer’s configuration. Second, I think that not following the manufacture’s configuration means that I am not getting the maximum efficiency from the steam boiler.

I do agree that they have to redo the piping according to the manufacture’s requirements. That is what our contract states.

adambnyc

You stated that you had "hammering" and that's why you down fired the boiler. Hammering is typically because of water surging and the water surging is directly related to the steam velocity and the piping of your boiler. If the boiler was properly sized and piped, you would never have experienced an issue to begin with.

KC_Jones

If it's in the contract you should be all set. Remember it clearly states 3" pipe. I didn't read the whole manual, but many of them state that failure to follow the manual can result in loss of warranty. Something else specifically mentioned in the manual.

" If two or more steam mains must be connected to the boiler, connect a
separate take-off for each main into the header between the riser(s) and equalizer."

Meaning those mains you have tee'd together above the boiler must have their own take off from the header. Just another observation.

Lewis

Thank you all for your feedback.
With open Main pipe—Main Steam vent removed, the steam takes 8 minutes to get from the top of 2” riser (before the Header) to the end of the 50ft 2” main. The pressuretrol is on 1.
Is the steam moving slower than it should? How long should it take to get to the end of the 50ft 2” main?

New England SteamWorks

That's too slow. 2 - 3 minutes max on a warm (not stone cold & not hot) system. Are your mains insulated?

ChrisJ

What pressure are you seeing during this?
If you're seeing practically no back pressure, no amount of venting in the world will change your results. I would want to see no more than an ounce at the absolute most.

My system can get steam down a 29' 2" main in about 60 seconds or so when the system is hot and I see around an 1/8 to a 1/4 of an ounce of back pressure during it.

If I have my ear an inch or so from the main vents I can hear them breathing, but it's barely audible and it's not hissing. If you hear hissing, the vents are too restrictive.

The other problem is if your boiler isn't piped properly, this will give you higher pressures at the boiler due to water restricting the flow of steam. Again, no amount of main vents will help this.

Abracadabra

Lewis said:

Thank you all for your feedback.
With open Main pipe—Main Steam vent removed, the steam takes 8 minutes to get from the top of 2” riser (before the Header) to the end of the 50ft 2” main. The pressuretrol is on 1.
Is the steam moving slower than it should? How long should it take to get to the end of the 50ft 2” main?

How are you determining when to start your timer?

Lewis

The Mains are not insulated. The pipes were cold but the basement, I guessing, was around 60 degrees. I start the timer when I feel heat at the top 28” riser, just before the elbow going into the header. Please note, this time is with an open pipe—I removed the Main Steam vent and left the pipe open. I did not remove the Main Steam vent that is at the end of my 2nd main which is a 20ft 1.50in. The pressuretrol is on 1. The pressure gauge on the outside of border seems to be at zero or so.

Thank you for your feedback.

BobC

Is there a constant slope on that main? If there is a dip along the pipe it might be pooling water and that will collapse steam as it tries to move over it. As Chris saud the near boiler piping is also very important.

Bob

RomanGK_26986764589

8 minutes does seem excessive. My cold 2inch 55 foot main vents in about 3 minutes with 3 gorton #2s installed.

ChrisJ

I'm thinking wet steam due to poor piping at the boiler.

Lewis

Hatterasguy
I removed the vent on the second main (20' main) and plug the tapped hole so the short main has no venting. The time remain the same, 8 minutes.

Jamie Hall

The simple lack of insulation isn't helping a bit. Consider: the steam can't make it past a given bit of pipe if the pipe wall can condense it. Without insulation, it's going to have to heat that pipe to near steam temperatures before it can move onto the next bit. And so on. Insulation reduces the amount of steam needed to do that -- and thus speeds up the steam to the next bit.

My 75 foot 3 inch mains take about 5 minutes each (there are three of them). Pressure is about 1 ounce. Venting of each main is through a crossover trap and back to the boiler, then one (1) Gorton #2 and one (1) Hoffman 75.

Lewis

Hatterasguy
8 risers on 50' length & 2 risers on 20' main with no large radiator vents. The House Radiator Measurements calculate to 195sq ft & Kingston KSZ075 Boiler should be making 283sq ft. The nozzle the installer put in is 20 degrees wider than what the Manufacture’s manual require.

Thank you all for your feedback.

Steamhead

Lewis said:

1950 two story house with 20 windows & 5 doors. The House Radiator Measurements calculate to 195sq ft and the Oil Fired Steam Boiler, Crown Kingston KSZ100BOPZ2PSU w/ Beckett AFG Oil Burner, installed is rated at 370sq ft. My old boiler gave me quiet steam. But my new boiler had hammering all over. So, I got the installer to put a smaller nozzle in which reduced the boiler rating to 283sq ft. Now I have quiet steam. However, the smaller nozzle the installer put in is 20 degrees wider than what the Manufacture’s manual require. Installer put in Del .65/80B instead of Del .65/60W.
1.) What are the advantages and disadvantages of using a Del 0.65/80B instead of Del .65/60W?
2.) Does the Del 0.65/80B increase the sq. ft. of stream vs. the Del 0.65/60W?
3.) Would using the Del 0.65/80B reduce the heating AFUE?
4.) Could using the Del 0.65/80B affect manufacture warranty?

The installer put in the wrong nozzle.

Your Beckett AFG has (or should have, according to the manual) the adjustable head (L1), which normally uses 60° nozzles. If you use an 80° nozzle with this head, the oil will spray onto the head which will gunk it up, screwing up the combustion process which will more than likely fill the boiler up with soot. The 80° nozzle is only used with the fixed heads (F0 to F33) on AFGs.

Also, the Delavan B nozzle produces a longer flame than the W, so the flame might be striking the target wall at the back of the firebox. This will reduce your efficiency and also create soot.

Call him back and have him put in the proper nozzle pattern.

If you find your system doesn't heat well at the lower firing rate, they will need to repipe it to the manufacturer's specs and put in the 0.85x80W. The smaller nozzle reduced the steam velocity as it exits the boiler, which kept the water from leaving the boiler with the steam and causing the banging.

Lewis

Hatterasguy
The installer put in B nozzle that is 20 degrees wider what the Manufacture’s manual require. Installer put in Del .65/80B nozzle instead of Del .65/60W. All radiators are getting piping hot. But I feel that the open 50 ft. main (I removed the Main Steam vent and left the pipe open) is taking too long to fill. I will re-time steam flow after cycle ends and while the pipe warm. Once the piping is corrected, I will insulate the main with 1” or 1.5” fiberglass insulation.

Steamhead
Thanks for the Head info. I will look it up in my AFG Burner Manual. Do you think it would be reasonable to ask my installer to clean my boiler free of charge because of their negligence?

Should the near piping be Schedule 40 or Schedule 80?

Thanks for help from all.

Lewis

Hatterasguy
Are you sure that everything has been done to improve that time?
According to the numbers, the 68BTUH is supposed to produce 283sq ft of steam and according to my House Radiator Measurement calculation, I should only need 195sq ft. of steam.

Could increasing the riser, the header and takeoffs from 2 inches to 3 inches as specified by the manufacture manual cause an improvement of time for the steam getting to the end of the 50 foot main?

Thanks.

Steamhead

Lewis said:

Hatterasguy
The installer put in B nozzle that is 20 degrees wider what the Manufacture’s manual require. Installer put in Del .65/80B nozzle instead of Del .65/60W. All radiators are getting piping hot. But I feel that the open 50 ft. main (I removed the Main Steam vent and left the pipe open) is taking too long to fill. I will re-time steam flow after cycle ends and while the pipe warm. Once the piping is corrected, I will insulate the main with 1” or 1.5” fiberglass insulation.

Steamhead
Thanks for the Head info. I will look it up in my AFG Burner Manual. Do you think it would be reasonable to ask my installer to clean my boiler free of charge because of their negligence?

Should the near piping be Schedule 40 or Schedule 80?

Thanks for help from all.

The piping situation and the nozzle situation are two different issues. The installer needs to fix both. If he won't, get in touch with the licensing authorities in your area.

Schedule 40 for the steam piping is fine.