McDonnell Miller PSE802 LWCO and 101A auto feeder not adding water

nybigapple

Very inexperienced with steam and heating in general but trying to learn. Recently the steam boiler stopped running due to a LWCO trigger. After manually adding water, everything started working as it should except the auto feeding of water. Every few days I have had to add water manually to maintain the water level.

What is the process in figuring out what's wrong and what needs replacing? Is the LWCO not calling for water? Is the water feeder just not working? Whenever the water feeder used to go off you would know because you could see and hear the water being added. Now it never turns on. I've searched this forum and read that a clogged strainer on the water feeder can cause water not to be added. Would the need for a new strainer and cartridge cause a water feeder never to go off, or to go off and not add water?

Ironman

If you're adding water every few days, you've got a more serious problem. You may have a leaking wet return. How much are you adding? Are your vents spitting out water?

nybigapple

I agree that, that is a big problem in itself. I believe it's a combination of clogged condensate lines, poor sloping, and bad radiator vents. This is a rent stabilized investment property, so the absolute minimum has been done with regards to regular maintenance.

The general solution with prior management to overcome the issue of certain apartments not getting heat was to just raise the pressure.

Back on point however. How do I go about figuring out the problem with the auto feeding of water?

BobC

The LWCO is working because it's shutting the boiler down, is it feeding voltage to the auto fill? If it is and it's not filling that filler isn't working.

Take it apart and see if it's clogged or replace it.

Bob

Ironman

Are the pse801 and the 101a the same voltage? There's a suffix in each model number that tells which you've omitted.

Fred

I would check the strainer first. They do clog. Do you hear the solenoid in the 101A click open at all? Check the wiring between the two devices. Check for voltage at the terminals on the 101A when there is a call for water. If all that checks out, it is very possible the solenoid, on the 101A has failed. If no voltage when there is a call for water, check the switch terminals on the LWCO. That switch may have failed. I'm assming that since the 101A and the LWCO worked together up until recently that they are the same voltage.

Fred

Hatterasguy said:

nybigapple said:

What is the process in figuring out what's wrong and what needs replacing?

Remove the probe for the PSE 802 and clean it. If nobody has cleaned the boiler in years, it might be unable to sense a low water condition due to accumulated rust and deposits.

He says the LWCO works, it's the auto water feed that isn't working.

Abracadabra

My guess is the strainer is clogged like @Fred said

nybigapple

Thanks for all the input everyone.

I went to clean it just now and was met with a tar pit of gunk, mud, and debris. The strainer actually had a tear in it, I'm guessing from all the clogged pressure. Simply replacing the cartridge and strainer is out of the question since feeling around inside yields more and more gunk.

I'm guessing it was never cleaned after the initial install, and the directions recommend an annual cleaning.

So my question for the knowledgable pros is this. Should I just order another 101A or would you recommend something else?

Fred

I took my 101A off and added a full port ball valve and just chect my boiler water level when I do a blow down of the LWCO. If you feel you have to have an auto fill, it is easy to just replace the 101A but it is also nice to have a meter to see how much water has been added to the boiler over a period of time. The Hydrolevel VXT is a nice unit with a built in meter. It is compatable with the MM PS 800 series LWCO's. You need to order a 24 volt or a 120V depending on your controls.

nybigapple

Autofill is absolutely necessary. Over 24 hours I will go from half sight glass to below sight glass. It's not even heavy cold winter season yet.

I'll start looking into reducing water loss after in another thread, but for now, a feeder is an absolute necessity.

Hydolevel VXT is actually cheaper than a 101A. How is the longevity of the VXT vs the 101A?

It should be a simple pull and swap going from the VXT to the 101A right?

Fred

That's a lot of water to lose. There has to be a significant leak somewhere. The VXT is not exactly a Pull and swap. With the 101A, there is a manual feed button built into the top of the unit. That eliminates the need to plumb a bypass with a open/close valve in the bypass line. The VXT requires that you build that bypass and install that bypass valve. If, by chance your 101A had that bypass, you are good but most I've seen don't. Also, the VTX may not be the same width as the 101A so you will need to plumb in a short extension.

BobC

i agree with @Fred the source of that water loss has to be found or you will be replacing that boiler very soon.

Bob

nybigapple

The water feeder is now installed!

You guys were also right. Kept searching till I found a corner section in the cellar that I never go to. Watched as gallons of water poured out every cycle through a broken pipe.

I have someone coming tomorrow morning to swap the pipe out. Thanks everyone. When you have a major leak like that, I'm guessing that makes the system have to work harder at a higher pressure. Am I right in assuming after a leaking pipe is fixed, the overall pressure will be lower?

Second question. The design of the property is two buildings separated by a 25 foot long courtyard. The steam line and return line are buried under the cement of the courtyard, 10+ feet deep. As the steam pipe exits the concrete into the rear cellar I can see a section of the outer pipe has torn. The designers were smart enough to put a pipe in a pipe in a pipe. So I think two layers are still intact. But there is steam or hopefully condensation smoke coming from that section.Is that sealable with a foam or something and how worried should I be for the rest of the underground pipe. I'll take a picture of it later for clarification.

Fred

Those pipes, outside of the inner most pipe are just there to protect the inner most, pipe. If steam is coming out of it, either a steam pipe or a condensate pipe or both have rotted through and need to be replaced. Not good news but it needs to be fixed.

nybigapple

Couldn't it just be the cold air hitting the hotter exposed pipe? Or is there definitely a leak somewhere?

Fred

Post a picture. Let's see. If you had a rotted pipe in the basement, it probably is rotted out there in the yard too.

nybigapple

Here's the courtyard pipe. The one going into the stairs is coming from the cellar. you can see the exposed heat pipe to the elements, along with a partially cut insulation covering, and if you look at the very bottom before it enters the concrete, a completely disintegrated 3rd pipe.

Then you have a trap door going into the rear building. I believe the trap door leaked rain, which dripped into that one spot. You can see the exterior pipe wide open, and the internal insulation starting to dissolve as well. I spotted a small amount of what looked like white condensation but possibly steam coming from that hole area. Though only once. It is not nonstop steaming.

What's the best way to go about insulating these pipes?

Ironman

You'll lose the boiler if you don't get all of the leaks fixed.

Fresh water brings in fresh O2 and minerals which will quickly corrode the boiler.