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New Boiler Problems
hotrodjimmy
Member Posts: 6
Hello all,
About a month ago I heard running water in the basement and discovered that my old boiler had sprung a massive leak, and would need to be replaced. Having tenants in the building, and being in New Hampshire where it was already below freezing at night, I had an emphasis on speed, and I had three plumbers come out, give me estimates etc. I know almost nothing about steam heat, other than that I enjoy it as a heating source more than all others, so I was light on the questions. It's a 1 pipe system, with natural gas. The only guy who could fit me in in the next month was the guy I went with, which in retrospect may have been a bad idea. We also had a lot of unplanned medical expenses that basically wiped out my emergency fund, so I had to do what I had to do.
Anyway, replacement went seemingly fine, but after it was installed, we started getting some crazy banging. So the plumber came back out, determined that the pitch may need to be slightly higher on some pipes with the main, and readjusted them. From reading other forums here in the past week, the fact that he replaced a few pieces from black iron to copper to "bend" the pipe down or whatever, may be a warning sign I'm in trouble with this company. Anyway, it solved the problem...for a week.
The next weekend we started getting banging, subtle at first, but by Sunday was full on hammering. At this point I started reading up like crazy on everything I could find. I found out a lot. For one, my pipes were completely uninsulated; apparently much more important on steam than say, hot water lines. So I bought a few hundred feet and lined all the pipes with 1". I haven't done the elbows/joints yet, as I'm not quite sure how to go about that, but if that's relevant that they are exposed and the straight pipe is covered, good. Then I checked the pitches of the radiators. Almost all of them were leaning backwards! To be honest I had never checked before, as the system was always working with no issues, so it never even occurred to me. They now slope the correct way, though I'm not sure if they also need to be level side to side, that is the house sags in the middle so the side of the radiator facing the outside wall is slightly higher than the side facing the inside of the room.
Also, to make matters more complicated, one half of the main and it's return definitely slopes slightly away from the boiler, and on the main just to the right of the boiler it kind of dips in the middle, almost like a shallow U. I tried jacking up the long section that was dipping, but I can't quit get it to level out, and I have no idea how to take out the U as it's not even really accessible right next to the chimney. None of this piping was changed with the new boiler, so the old one was working this way for 30+ years without issue (or noticeable to me issue)
Anyway, the plumber came out, skimmed the thing for a few hours, and that was that. It seemed to take care of the issue, again, for a few weeks. Again subtle banging, but then more and more as time went on. These are my observations from the last few weeks. One of the radiators starting spitting water out of it's steam vent, so I replaced it and any others that were old. Now they seem to work as intended, though after the radiator has heated up a bit, they sometimes open again and let more air out (no steam or water that I've seen). I was under the impression that they closed when steam was in there and shouldn't need to reopen while the system is still running, but I am probably wrong on that. Also, I don't appear to have a main steam vent anywhere in the system. In fact, I know there's no steam main vent because I can see every inch of pipe clearly and after googling what they look like there is definitely no vent on my system. When the system is running, the water gets very low in the bottom of the glass, maybe 1/2" or so. It bobs a bit, but I wouldn't say it's "surging," thought here is a bunch of filmy gunk on top of the water. When the system is at rest it is half full. Most of the banging comes very early in the heating cycle (though in general the system isn't on very long, it's still 40 degrees in the day here), and sometimes was one loud hammer, other times a series of much more tolerable bangs..though occasionally banging happens later in the cycle. I've checked all the pipes coming from the main, and they all slope at least a little bit, in the correct direction. There is very little in the way of hangers on some of these pipes however, enough that I can move them a bit by hand if I want; again I don't know if that's relevant.
Now I've had calls into plumbers to come take a look at this stuff (as well as the original guy, who seems to be at a loss for what to do short of quote "you should have ripped it all out and gone with forced hot water'),but most don't even return my calls, and the few that did said a) it's not worth their time, b) it'd take them weeks to get out here at the earliest, and c) they don't work with steam. So I'm having a lot of trouble finding someone who knows how to work on these systems and what it takes to fix them. The banging is stressing out my dog and my wife, and the tenants upstairs, so I'm kind of at wits end here. Hence why I'm trying to at least find the solution so I can tell someone specifically what I want, if not do it myself.
Here's some pictures below...I ran out of insulation which is why not all the parts of the main are covered. I know it's amateur...that's what I am. Thanks so much, I've learned so much here already, and just ordered a few books on the subject.
About a month ago I heard running water in the basement and discovered that my old boiler had sprung a massive leak, and would need to be replaced. Having tenants in the building, and being in New Hampshire where it was already below freezing at night, I had an emphasis on speed, and I had three plumbers come out, give me estimates etc. I know almost nothing about steam heat, other than that I enjoy it as a heating source more than all others, so I was light on the questions. It's a 1 pipe system, with natural gas. The only guy who could fit me in in the next month was the guy I went with, which in retrospect may have been a bad idea. We also had a lot of unplanned medical expenses that basically wiped out my emergency fund, so I had to do what I had to do.
Anyway, replacement went seemingly fine, but after it was installed, we started getting some crazy banging. So the plumber came back out, determined that the pitch may need to be slightly higher on some pipes with the main, and readjusted them. From reading other forums here in the past week, the fact that he replaced a few pieces from black iron to copper to "bend" the pipe down or whatever, may be a warning sign I'm in trouble with this company. Anyway, it solved the problem...for a week.
The next weekend we started getting banging, subtle at first, but by Sunday was full on hammering. At this point I started reading up like crazy on everything I could find. I found out a lot. For one, my pipes were completely uninsulated; apparently much more important on steam than say, hot water lines. So I bought a few hundred feet and lined all the pipes with 1". I haven't done the elbows/joints yet, as I'm not quite sure how to go about that, but if that's relevant that they are exposed and the straight pipe is covered, good. Then I checked the pitches of the radiators. Almost all of them were leaning backwards! To be honest I had never checked before, as the system was always working with no issues, so it never even occurred to me. They now slope the correct way, though I'm not sure if they also need to be level side to side, that is the house sags in the middle so the side of the radiator facing the outside wall is slightly higher than the side facing the inside of the room.
Also, to make matters more complicated, one half of the main and it's return definitely slopes slightly away from the boiler, and on the main just to the right of the boiler it kind of dips in the middle, almost like a shallow U. I tried jacking up the long section that was dipping, but I can't quit get it to level out, and I have no idea how to take out the U as it's not even really accessible right next to the chimney. None of this piping was changed with the new boiler, so the old one was working this way for 30+ years without issue (or noticeable to me issue)
Anyway, the plumber came out, skimmed the thing for a few hours, and that was that. It seemed to take care of the issue, again, for a few weeks. Again subtle banging, but then more and more as time went on. These are my observations from the last few weeks. One of the radiators starting spitting water out of it's steam vent, so I replaced it and any others that were old. Now they seem to work as intended, though after the radiator has heated up a bit, they sometimes open again and let more air out (no steam or water that I've seen). I was under the impression that they closed when steam was in there and shouldn't need to reopen while the system is still running, but I am probably wrong on that. Also, I don't appear to have a main steam vent anywhere in the system. In fact, I know there's no steam main vent because I can see every inch of pipe clearly and after googling what they look like there is definitely no vent on my system. When the system is running, the water gets very low in the bottom of the glass, maybe 1/2" or so. It bobs a bit, but I wouldn't say it's "surging," thought here is a bunch of filmy gunk on top of the water. When the system is at rest it is half full. Most of the banging comes very early in the heating cycle (though in general the system isn't on very long, it's still 40 degrees in the day here), and sometimes was one loud hammer, other times a series of much more tolerable bangs..though occasionally banging happens later in the cycle. I've checked all the pipes coming from the main, and they all slope at least a little bit, in the correct direction. There is very little in the way of hangers on some of these pipes however, enough that I can move them a bit by hand if I want; again I don't know if that's relevant.
Now I've had calls into plumbers to come take a look at this stuff (as well as the original guy, who seems to be at a loss for what to do short of quote "you should have ripped it all out and gone with forced hot water'),but most don't even return my calls, and the few that did said a) it's not worth their time, b) it'd take them weeks to get out here at the earliest, and c) they don't work with steam. So I'm having a lot of trouble finding someone who knows how to work on these systems and what it takes to fix them. The banging is stressing out my dog and my wife, and the tenants upstairs, so I'm kind of at wits end here. Hence why I'm trying to at least find the solution so I can tell someone specifically what I want, if not do it myself.
Here's some pictures below...I ran out of insulation which is why not all the parts of the main are covered. I know it's amateur...that's what I am. Thanks so much, I've learned so much here already, and just ordered a few books on the subject.
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Comments
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That boiler is piped completely wrong, no header, copper pipe, two mains tied into the top of that riser, one of which goes into a bull headed Tee. That tapping right under the pressure gauge is where the skim port should be so I don't know how he could have skimmed the boiler. Look at the installation manual. It will show you how the boiler should be piped, at a minimum. You need to get that boiler re-piped, get it skimmed properly, get any sags or incorrectly pitched pipes corrected and get rid of the copper above the boiler water line. It's a mess, as it is and it will never run properly until fixed.0
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Oh, my. Did the installer even bother to read the manual?0
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That piping is not kosher at all but you said it worked for a while after being skimmed. I assume he used the port just below the pressure gauge?
For now I would give it another good skim and see if it settles down. It should take a couple of hours to fill a 5 gallon bucket at a slow trickle. Then I would look at the manual on page 17 and pipe it correctly in steel pipe, make sure the header is 28" above the water line.
BobSmith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
3PSI gauge0 -
Well... To begin with, your near boiler piping is not right. I don't know why installers can't follow the manufacturer's diagram, but that way it is now, it's gonna draw water up with the steam and throw it into the mains. That's gonna cause water hammer.
Second, your pipes should be pitched downward going away from the boiler, not back towards it. Counterflow systems pitch back toward the boiler, but they don't have return lines. You have returns, so the mains are pitched wrong. This is gonna cause hammering too.
Third, the boiler riser should not be connected to the mains through a bull head tee. That may have previously been that way, but the installer should have corrected it with two main risers off of a properly piped header.
Fourth, your boiler needs skimming again. Sometimes it takes multiple skimmings until all the cutting oil, pipe dope, and in this case soldering flux, is removed. If the installer had cleaned the threading oil and flux of before fitting the pipes, the amount off skimming needed could have been greatly reduced. He didn't leave a skimming nipple in the block, so I'm skeptical if he skimmed it correctly.
What's the pressuretrol set at? It should be cut in @ .5 psi, and cut out @ 1.5 psi.
You definitely need main venting installed. Post the size and length of your mains, along with the connected EDR on each, and we can make suggestions.
If your boiler has two tappings in the block, then it should have two risers. Here's what a correctly piped header looks like:
A drop header is even better as it assures 99% dry steam going out to the mains. Look at the header on each of these:
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
That poor boiler! If it could, it would run away from home. If you were writing of a book of things not to do......that should be on page 1.
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Sorry @hotrodjimmy , but I concur. It's never going to work without a re-pipe. Might as well do it right then:
New England SteamWorks
Service, Installation, & Restoration of Steam Heating Systems
newenglandsteamworks.com0 -
wish the company I work for would let me do natural gas....:(0
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I work for an LP supplier..;)0
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Nothing wrong with a little diversification, especially if it is on equipment/system installs. If a customer has NG, the boiler install is still good money. Isn't it? Still pays the bills just like LP money.0
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No wonder this contractor was available to do the job!!
The first thing we need to do is to get people to read. It's simple, read and follow the mfg. diagram.
They just can't be bothered and because they don't know how it works they think the piping doesn't matter0 -
Wow thanks guys, that was a lot of great information really fast. The "plumber" just reinstalled everything the way it was before, as best I can tell, in terms of the main/headers and all that, so presumably whoever set it up 75 years ago did it wrong the first time? Or things have just changed since then...I guess it doesn't matter.
In the meantime, I guess I will just skim it again. I now know that this needs to pretty much be redone from scratch piping wise, and I have to imagine that's expensive. I don't have the money for that right now, and it's running...is it as currently piped going to kill us or destroy itself in a season, or can I limp it along (albeit inefficiently) as is for a while.
I checked the heatinghelp find a contractor page, as as I mentioned before I haven't been able to get anyone local to take a look at this thing. The closest guy is about 50 miles away. Are these guys approved, do they just pay a fee, how do they end up on that list? I've gotten more good advice here in an afternoon than 5 years of ownership in this house. Is asking for contacts to call OK on this board? I'm in SE New Hampshire.
Regardless, I'm going to print this thing out and show it to whoever comes out and looks at is, as none of the numerous plumbers I've had look at this system over the years have ever said anything about it being piped all wrong. Thanks0 -
If you can get Charlie you are done looking. Have patients.
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Ahh that explains why they are sloped away from the boiler...so apparently that is OK because it has the return lines? Good to know.Ironman said:Well... To begin with, your near boiler piping is not right. I don't know why installers can't follow the manufacturer's diagram, but that way it is now, it's gonna draw water up with the steam and throw it into the mains. That's gonna cause water hammer.
Second, your pipes should be pitched downward going away from the boiler, not back towards it. Counterflow systems pitch back toward the boiler, but they don't have return lines. You have returns, so the mains are pitched wrong. This is gonna cause hammering too.
What's the pressuretrol set at? It should be cut in @ .5 psi, and cut out @ 1.5 psi.
You definitely need main venting installed. Post the size and length of your mains, along with the connected EDR on each, and we can make suggestions.
Also the pressuretrol is set at .5, as low as it will go. The differential is either set all the way up or down, I'm not sure which, 1 or 5?
The mains are 2 3/8" diameter, and are about 20 feet long. There's about 90 feet of feeder(?) pipes to individual radiators, those are 1 1/4". I'm not sure what specifically you are asking for with EDR. Is this for measuring the radiators individually? Like the chart here http://www.columbiaheatingsupply.com/page_images/Sizing Cast Iron Radiator Heating Capacity Guide.pdf
Sorry for my complete lack of knowledge in what I am talking about.0 -
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Yes, I watched him skim it, at least for a few minutes, and that's what he did. This is something I'm pretty sure I can do myself after watching some youtube videos on it. Though maybe that's a fool's errand to be screwing around with a boiler when I'm not 100% sure what I'm doing.BobC said:That piping is not kosher at all but you said it worked for a while after being skimmed. I assume he used the port just below the pressure gauge?
For now I would give it another good skim and see if it settles down. It should take a couple of hours to fill a 5 gallon bucket at a slow trickle. Then I would look at the manual on page 17 and pipe it correctly in steel pipe, make sure the header is 28" above the water line.
Bob
I found pictures of piping on page 11 of the manual, but they aren't very extensive. Though obviously I'm not going to tackle this project by myself anyway, so me understanding what I'm looking at is probably irrelevant.0 -
If you can get Charlie out , he is excellent! The wheel inside the Pressuretrol should be set at "1". Can you limp along for a while? That depends. It certainly will not heat like it should and will likely carry a lot of water up into the mains, along with the steam. Piped like that, it may or may not heat the radiators well during the colder part of the winter and a lot of hammer is not great on your nerves or on the piping/fittings and any main vents. Why can't you get the guy who installed it back there to do it by the book? Show him the feed back you got here.0
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I wonder if it is the same guy who pipes those Weil McLains like that. My boiler used to be piped similarly and somebody posted this pic recently.
https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/editor/qt/enlu5155vf66.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/editor/aw/5stlrki44nyp.jpeg
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New boilers have much smaller steam chests than their predecessors. This necessitates having to pipe the header like the install manual shows. If it's not done that way, water will be drawn up into the mains with the steam. This explains why you got by with it on the old boiler.
Still, there's no excuse for it on the part of the installer: he had the manual! He should have read and followed it. He's liable for the install being wrong.Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
I'm in Dover... Where you at?
I see this all the time... So tired of seeing folks not look at the instructions.
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Some folks get real stubborn when you tell them they have done something wrong. If the installer looks at it as a learning experience that would be great but if he approaches it as a punishment I don't see him doing a good job.
I would give it a good skim and see if that quiets it down, you will need a 6 or 8" pipe nipple and a cap to set it up. You may have to skim it several times to get all the oils out but it's really a simple job that just needs time.
It won't work the way it should but at least you'll be able to live with it till it's done right. Also see if you can get Charlie to look at it but be warned he is VERY busy at this time of year.
BobSmith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
3PSI gauge0 -
On the recommendation of everyone here I contacted Charlie. He doesn't service NH. I am in Dover, NH. Any other recommendations?Hatterasguy said:Charlie is in Springfield.
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
He'll fix you up.
Be patient for him.0 -
I live and work in Dover... have been doing steam for nearly 20 years..... Was that job inspected?
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I messaged you.kcopp said:I live and work in Dover... have been doing steam for nearly 20 years..... Was that job inspected?
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Just curious how this turned out?0
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I stopped in and made a couple temporary fixes. I didnt have the time to do the re- pipe in the winter
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