Clogged wet returns

garrettgjp

Thank you to everyone at heatinghelp.com and to those who write and post on this forum! I have enjoyed reading this forum and learning about my 2-pipe steam system! I have read A Pocketfull of Steam Problems and We Got Steam Heat and feel like I am gaining an understanding of the system we've owned for the last 4 years.

I haven't had any issues until this winter, i noticed water shooting out of my main vents in the basement in 2 of the vents to the left of my boiler and also in the vent directly above my boiler. The contractor I have been working with has determined I have a few clogged wet returns on my system. Currently my system doesn't have any flush fittings to keep the wet returns clean so they need to be cut out and replaced. I have been reading about flush fittings and want to suggest this to my contractor while he is replacing the wet returns. How far above the water line should the flush fittings be installed? Is it worth replacing all the wet returns (5) at the same time even though 2-3 are plugged or partially plugged? The contractor suggested looking at the first one and then going from there as far as deciding wether to redo all the returns or not. Included are a few photos, I can take more if that would help any of you in making a better diagnosis. I would appreciate any input given, thanks!

KC_Jones

Need to clarify terminology. A wet return is a return below the water line of the boiler. From your pictures the wet return is right there at the boiler and you have a drain valve right on the end of it.

If it was me before I spent a bunch of money replacing pipes I would try and clean what you have. You could go so far as taking the valve completely off which gives you access to use a wire or some other tool to pull out the crud. You could introduce water through your vent hole(s) on the mains to help flush the crud through.

If you do replace I would suggest copper for the wet part. It stays much cleaner, the water out of mine looks like drinking water.

kcopp

can you pull out the boiler drain and snake over through that? It going to me messy but you gotta do what you have to do...
I am also running into the this a lot as of late.

Abracadabra

Yeah.. you have no wet returns. The only thing wet as @KC_Jones said is the return manifold to the left of the boiler. You don't need to replace any pipes. Open the valve, drain about a gallon or two of water out, remove the drain valve and snake around there and then wash out with a garden hose.

Jamie Hall

And while you are cleaning things... the comment about water shooting out of the vents makes me wonder about pressure. Take the pigtail off and clean it and the opening into the boiler thoroughly, and check the opening into the pressuretrol. Can't hurt anything, takes about 10 minutes...

Also make sure the pressuretrol is set properly (not over 0.7 cutin and a 1.0 differential.

Abracadabra

Also wondering why the insulation at the boiler looks burnt.
Also wondering if there's actually a skim port setup.
Also wondering if the stuff on top of the boiler jacket is condensation? water? dripping from above?

New England SteamWorks

"The contractor I have been working with has determined I have a few clogged wet returns on my system. "

Did you happen to notice how he came to this conclusion? Is there a draw off or drain on the opposite end of the manifold (as there should be)?

garrettgjp

Thanks all!! Sorry my terminology is incorrect- I feel like a newbie in this still. I'll have the contractor start with taking the valve off and snake into that manifold to see if that does the trick. I am glad to hear that I may not have to remove any pipes.

kcopp, I have had the boiler drain off so we'll try to snake back that direction as well.

Jamie Hall, last week i pulled off the pigtail, pressurtrol, and boiler connection- used some brushes and wire and cleaned it well. A bunch of gunk came out of the pigtail- so not sure if the pressuretrol was able to do its job or not before i cleaned it. I double checked the settings cut-in .5 and differential 1.0. Since then there has been less water hammer in the pipes although there is still some after the boiler has been running for a while. When operating the gauge doesn't move much, pressuretrol kicks off the system just under 2.0 psi. and kicks in a little under 1.0 when i watch it. I think "shooting" was a poor word choice, spurting/just running out of the top and down the side of the vent is probably a more accurate description.

garrettgjp

Abracadabra, The insulation is stained from rusty water from the vent above the boiler dripping down and splashing/soaking that area. No skim port set up yet, my sight glass levels definitely fluctuate should I make that my first priority?

Yeah that is water sitting on my boiler jacket, pooling from the vent above. For the last 2 weeks or so i clean up a little pool of water that accumulates there before and after work. The insulation gets damp and dries and now has taken on that nasty burnt orange color.

Fred

With no skim port, that boiler has probably never been skimmed. I would get the skim port on there and drain the boiler, refill it and do a good long skim. That could well be part of your problem but I would also check the mains and make sure they are all pitched the right direction. Also, how long is the main and what diameter pipe? That vent you show in one of your pictures probably isn't enough and added venting could help reduce pressure a little more.

garrettgjp

RI_SteamWorks, the contractor thinks that there is a clog somewhere in that manifold or the vertical pipes that is preventing the water in some of the lines from getting back to the boiler. He thought that the clog/blockage was backing the water all the way up the vertical lines and to the point that it would run out of the main vents. There isn't a draw off or drain on the opposite side of the manifold, just the drain on the front.

Is that a possibility? It sounded good to me at the time but now I don't know what to think. He turned off the boiler and water slowly ran back to the boiler and it flooded way over the sight glass. We had to drain quite a bit of water off (a few gallons) to get it back into the sight glass. We took that as confirmation that the water isn't getting back to the boiler through that manifold.


Also I have also noticed the llwco turning off the boiler and then auto water feeder kicking on more than in the past but I figured that was compensating for the water that was lost out of the vents. I took that as a sign that the condensate water is not getting back to the boiler as soon as it should, but I could be way off there.

nicholas bonham-carter

Those main vents look rather tired, and even when young were too small.--NBC

New England SteamWorks

garrettgjp said:

RI_SteamWorks, the contractor thinks that there is a clog somewhere in that manifold or the vertical pipes that is preventing the water in some of the lines from getting back to the boiler. He thought that the clog/blockage was backing the water all the way up the vertical lines and to the point that it would run out of the main vents. There isn't a draw off or drain on the opposite side of the manifold, just the drain on the front.

Is that a possibility?

Yes, it is. A lot of gunk can settle down in that manifold. Below is a photo of one I recently had to re-do. Your vents are almost certainly too small. They are also done in copper, which I suppose means there's a chance those returns and manifold are copper as well. If it does end up being re-done, make sure the manifold is at least 2", with drains on both ends so you can flush.

garrettgjp

Should I swap those vents out for Gorton #2s? The vents that are on there now are Hoffman 4a. Could the vents be the source of the water issue?

RI_SteamWorks the pipes are all copper as you suspected, who ever did this switched over from black iron to copper about a foot on the other side of the wall on the left side of the picture and it is copper above the boiler to about where that orange line is drawn on the right. Pulled off the drain valve and looked in the manifold and everything is very clean. Contractor put a ball valve on the front of that manifold. I am going to work on getting the skim port put in and skim it over the weekend and go from there.

The copper pipes should be replaced black iron down to the manifold from what I understand, is that correct? I think that is a project that might have to wait until summer...

New England SteamWorks

We like to see black pipe. But if you have copper now, replacing it with black wouldn't be something that I would put very high on the to-do list. Big Mouth vents are preferable to the Gortons. If you measure the dimension and length of the mains we can tell you how many.

Which brings me to my next question: In the pictures you sent along we see one supply main taking off from the header, but we have 5 returns: What's on the other side of that wall that the 4 returns pass through? Could we get some more pics?

garrettgjp

Ok, sounds good. Thanks for the vent suggestion!

Is there an easy way to measure the diameter of the mains when they are insulated? Also I'm not sure where to start and stop measuring the length of the mains...

The picture sequence follows the main as it goes towards the back of the boiler and then around back towards the left side of the boiler.
The last picture is the other side of the wall where those 4 returns come back to left of the boiler.

New England SteamWorks

Here is what I think I see:

1. The big main supply leaves the boiler and goes out all around the basement. After the last radiator take-off the pipe reduces and doubles back (it is now a dry return at this point) to the boiler, and this is the return with the vent directly above the boiler. Is that correct? If so, we need the length of the main, and then the length of it's dry return to determine the vent(s) needed.
2. The 4 other returns are confusing. Was there a later addition added? Can you possibly sketch where these 4 returns originate, or better describe their paths, or take better/more photographs?

garrettgjp

Thank you again for the continued help!!!

Here is a sketch on a copy of my floor plans. I included the floors with the location of the radiators too. I hope this gives a better visual picture of what is going on/where pipes are coming and going from/to. I sketched it as accurately as I could and hopefully labeled things a a way that kind of makes sense.

The vent that is above the boiler is on a very short run- it comes off the main that is to the left, branches off immediately and serves only one small radiator in the kitchen on the first floor and then returns above the boiler. I think you'll see that on the sketch.

The other returns (orange) just parallel both mains and start after the first radiator & trap in the each run. They loop around and meet in that storage room and then go across back towards that manifold.

I measured what I have sketched in the thick black- (what I think are the mains).
The (black) main run to the left is 44' 6. (2 inch)
- what I thought was the dry return (pink) is 10' 6. (1 inch)

The main run to the right is 41'.(2 inch)
- that return (pink line) is 10' 6 as well. (1 inch)

Where the black line changes to pink the pipe reduces from 2 inch to 1 inch.
Should I measure the (orange) return lines too?

I noticed that only half of my pictures were loaded on that last post the ones that are up are pictures going to the right from the boiler and then around back to the vents. I will take pics going to the left and around back to the vents and post them shortly.

garrettgjp

Using the floor plans as a kind of reference, I'll try to walk through following the main through the basement. This photo sequence starts in the boiler room and follows the main left through the boiler room, across the base of the stairway and takes another left towards the laundry room. Once in the laundry room there is a photo looking left from main, (towards the bottom of the page) this line runs to the 1st and second floor bedroom radiators (on the bottom left of the page). The next photo looks right, following the main (towards the top of the page). The photos continue following the main towards the laundry sink, under the bathroom and then through both storage units across the hallway and back to the manifold.

New England SteamWorks

Fine work, everything understood now.

1. So, am I correct in understanding that the contractor came back out to check for a clogged manifold and instead found everything in order? No apparent clog or sludge?
2. Have we checked the traps?

garrettgjp

1. Correct, no clogs, no sludge found, a few small rusty particles in the manifold but they drained out easily. Replaced the drain valve with a ball valve.

2. Yes, that was the next thing done. He used a digital IR thermometer and went around to the traps and checked those- working as the should.

Abracadabra

I don't think I saw a picture of the gauge glass. What level is the water at?

Has any new piping been installed?

JUGHNE

When was the boiler relocated? Is it possible that the 4 returns that were newly installed for the move do not have enough slope on they to promptly return the condensate?

I agree, the vents look to be original and time for a change.

Are you located in ND?

garrettgjp

Thank you for the help!!

Abracadabra-

The gauge glass is consistently above the middle, though it does surge up and down. I am hoping that skimming it will eliminate the fluctuations- I haven't been able to get the skim plug out, so I have the contractor coming tomorrow to try and get it out for me. I thought is was supposed to stay closer to the middle but if I drain off a little water to bring it down it auto fills and gets back up to where it is now.

Abracadabra & Jughne-
Reading through the building plans, and talking to 2 of the previous owners of the house, the boiler and probably some piping was done in 1997-98.

The current boiler was definitely installed at that time. I located in Grand Forks, ND - during the spring of 1997 there was a devastating flood and the basement and main floor were flooded (water was standing about 2 feet above the main floor.) Since then the city built a dike wall along the city on the river side and floods haven't been an issue- I am pretty confident the piping (and probably those vents) haven't changed at all since then.

According to the original floor plan there was a boiler for each unit, and looking around in my basement it appears the house transitioned from coal, then to fuel oil, and now natural gas so the place definitely has experienced some changes since it was built in 1927. I'm just not sure what happened when prior to 1997.

JUGHNE are you from ND? There aren't many who are or that have even visited.
I haven't had any luck finding an excellent steam guy here so if you have any contacts I'd appreciate any help!!!

Thank you all again for your interest and helpful insight!!!

garrettgjp

I just took my level along the returns and all are sloping towards the boiler, granted I was using the level over the insulated pipes.

JUGHNE

I read here about someone who taped 2" nails to their level and then could poke thru the insulation to prove the exact surface of the pipe. Identical nails needed.

I am 2 states south of you in NE, close to SD.
Have driven thru your city, even stopped at the tool house.
It is hell having a river that flows north into an ice dam, if I read the story correctly.

Sailah

A temp gauge isn't a good way to check the condition of traps. If you want to test this I'll need you to open up a couple traps and send me the guts inside. I'll send you a couple repair kits so your traps won't be offline. I can test and report back. It sounds like they have never been replaced so I'd consider them suspect being that old.

Abracadabra

Is it just me, or does that water level look a little too high?

Fred

Abracadabra said:

Is it just me, or does that water level look a little too high?

The water level is too high. The probe may be in the wrong tapping or something if it always fills to that level. It should be half to2/3's up the glass. Aren't there some dip switches in the auto feeder that let's you adjust the amount of water that's added?

garrettgjp

Thanks all!

It has been snowing pretty good up here for the last week, so a lot of my free time outside work has been filled with snow blowing and shoveling.

Just finished getting the skim port done. I will do a few long skims to see if that helps the process and maybe that will help eliminate the bouncing and keep the water level near the middle?

Jughne, exactly! A fast thaw/ early spring here can be devastating to river communities and farmers that don't have large dike walls. Ice jams and water can create quite the nightmare. We've had a few dry winters recently, so the river hasn't done much damage lately. Acme tool crib is a great place, it is easy to get carried away buying tools and equipment!! They have it all.

Sailah, many of the traps have been replaced- I know the previous owner replaced traps and put on TRVs between 2008-2012. I have done a few too because some of the radiators backed up and filled with water. I'll hit you up after skimming the boiler for more information, I'd love to better understand how to repair and diagnose bad traps!

Fred & Abracadabra, I can't find any other possible tappings where the LLWCO might go.

I looked at my water auto feeder-
(McDonnell & Miller) Model: WWF2-U-24.
The uni-match switch is on 3, if i am reading the manual correctly I think it should be on 2. I have a Hydrolevel 400 series LLWCO.

Should I switch it to 2 or should it stay on 3?

Fred

I'm not sure but I think that unit has been discontinued but I believe they came shipped with a 2 GPM orifice in them and two additional orifices, one for 1 GPM and one for 4 GPM. Is it possible someone installed the 4 GPM orifice in that unit? If not and you still have the orifices, you may want to try the 1 GPM orifice.

garrettgjp

Thank you Fred, I don't have any of the orifices unfortunately. I take it that they probably aren't available to order anymore either if they discontinued this unit?

Fred

garrettgjp said:

Thank you Fred, I don't have any of the orifices unfortunately. I take it that they probably aren't available to order anymore either if they discontinued this unit?

You may be able to find them somewhere, Maybe try a McDonnell Miller distributor or a plumbing supply, maybe even Ebay. You may even find that they are the same orifice used in the MM water feeder that replaced this model, the WFE-24