New to Steam Heat

Jesse_6

Thank you all for your earlier replies. As discussed Moving previous post to Strictly Steam board. Here is my initial post

Hi all..
I'm new here. I realize this is a rather lengthy post/call for help. I appreciate the effort that active members put into supporting these boards. Thanks in advance for your time and knowledge sharing.

I moved into my home just over a year ago. Its a Circa 1820's Colonial which has undergone two major additions/renovations over the years, by the look of things nothing all too recent. I've observed a few of radiators and pipes have been relocated during these renovations.
I'm a little concerned that things are not running optimally, over the last year we burnt well over 1500 gallons of oil heating 2,500 sq foot house. This being my first home with an oil burning, steam boiler, with one pipe steam. I have no real basis for comparison maybe this is totally normal. Upon moving in last fall it was readily apparent that the heating system was neglected. I've started to take steps to address some of the obvious problems.

1. Replaced all the pressure valves on the radiators as nearly all were hissing and never closing.
2. Re-pitched all the radiators as none were correctly sloped.
3. Re-packed all the gate valves at the radiators most were leaking.
With above steps completed and a slightly quitter heating system. I'm observing the following behaviors from my heating system which i still have questions about.


1. One of the mains in my basement (I think it’s a main) that appears to be on the return line from some of my most distant radiators continually vent steam when the system is running full bore.
a. Should I replace it or is this expected behavior? Understand the answer to this is no vent needs replacing or servicing.

2. On the same line as above, my two most distant radiators are the last to heat in the entire house. I have Hoffman A1 vents on the radiators both vents appear to be working fine they are newly replaced and set to #3 for size of radiator and not distance from boiler as I have read is correct. If I remove the Hoffman when boiler is going I get heat faster but it’s still kind of slow compared to others. I should note these radiators have been retro fitted to a copper feeder pipe (maybe 1" or slightly bigger?) which sits on the surface of a crawl space in an addition.
a. I imagine that insulating this pipe would help and be a good idea but will that fix the problem?
b. Do I need to think about having this pipe replaced? This would be a big job it’s in a very tight crawl space. No one is going to want to work in there.
c. Should all radiators heat perfectly in sync? What should be my expectation?

Understand pipe is likely too small and probably needs to be vented and radiators should heat close to in sync.
I'll crawl back into family room addition get exact mapping of copper pipe its drawn in but distances are not exact. I don't know the correct way to draw this out but as a start here is a rough sketch (roughly to scale) of system.
Hopefully it doesn't create more questions then answers :-$. Also posting a few pics of piping around the boiler. Forgot to add to drawing I have a small forced hot water zone in kitchen addition running off this boiler as well. you will probably notice the piping and expansion tank in pics.

Hopefully with this information someone can tell me if I need more vents and where they should be placed. I believe this was the suggested starting place. Once this is determined, perhaps we can begin visiting some of my other questions.

Fred

The near boiler piping looks decent. It sounds like you probably need more venting at the end of the mains. Those last radiators are probably not getting a lot of steam because it is taking so much of the heating cycle for the steam to push the air out of the mains to get to those radiators. That coupled with the fact your mains aren't insulated, compounds the problem. In addition to pushing the air out of an under-vented main(s) much of the steam is condensing in the pipes before it can get to the radiators. How long is each main (looks like you have 2 coming off of the boiler header) and what diameter are those pipes? Based on that we can tell you how much venting you need on each main. Header, above the boiler and riser out of the boiler should be insulated too. Any pipes that run out to each radiator that you can get to should also be insulated, especially those in the crawl space.

Ironman

"The near boiler piping looks decent."

I agree. We usually don't see that on here.

The water in the sight glass looks pretty nasty. You probably need to flush your return lines, and drain and skim the boiler.

No vents on your system should be releasing steam - just air. They should close when the steam reaches them.

Jesse_6

Fred / Ironman, thanks for your reply. I had attached a PDFs sketch of entire system but doesn't look like it posted. I converted to image file with better results. Here it is. To answer your question biggest main is 28' of 2 1/2" pipe. The second one you mention is also 2 1/2" Very initial pipe coming from boiler is 3" but its immediately reduced to 2 1/2 Perspective i drew this diagram is looking down. I labeled risers and where they go. All except for one go to second floor. there is one that goes all the way up to finished attic.

Any recommendations on insulation on the pipes? Think I've seen fiberglass wrap in some pics. Can i just pick up at Home Depot or do you have suggestion for something better/different?

Fred

If it were me, I'd put a Barnes and Jones Bigmouth vents at the end of each of those 2.5" mains. The Bigmouth is less expensive than the Gorton #2 and have twice the venting capacity. Plenty for those mains. Flollowing is the Amazon link for the Bigmouth vents and also a link for pipe insulation that's priced well:
https://www.amazon.com/Barnes-Jones-Big-Mouth-Vent/dp/B01F26P13C/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1480643760&sr=8-1-fkmr1&keywords=Barnes+and+Jones+Bigmouth+vent

http://www.buyinsulationproductstore.com/Fiberglass-Pipe-Insulation-SSL-ASJ/

New England SteamWorks

Looks like you have a counterflow system. This would mean that the three steam supply mains each pitch upwards away from the boiler and then eventually end somewhere out in your basement.

Otherwise, you would have a parallel flow and the steam mains would pitch downwards from the boiler, and at their ends they would reduce a pipe size and return back to the boiler.

With counterflow you would want your main vents out at the ends.

Your diagram shows an 8' section of 2-1/2" pipe connecting two separate steam mains. This would be odd. Is it correct?

We could use a pictures of the three ends, and also of the copper runs going into the crawl space. Also a picture of the piping behind the boiler.

And could you pls update your drawing to show where the new addition is so we can attempt to determine original from retro-fitted.

Jesse_6

Thanks Fred thanks RI steam works. I'll get in my tyvec bunny suite this w/e and crawl back in there to get some pics. Of piping in addition. No mistake that 2 1/2 8' is connecting those two mains. I'll get pics of all of it and add some more detail to that drawing.

Jesse_6

Firstly thanks gain for everyone feedback so far. I can't say enough how much I appreciate people taking time to answer my questions. Its been a big help!
So, I got back into the craw space and updated diagram as well as snapped requested pics. Starting with updated diagram.
I noticed in the crawl Space that there is in fact 2 1/2" iron pipe going to two radiators in the family room. There is also a 1" copper pipe that returns to boiler running low along the floor of the space.
Also, i haven't noticed any water leaks in my investigations so far but i have discovered on length of steam pipe that is buried in structure. its the 10' length leading to riser for the guest bathroom. it could be leaking there and i wouldn't know. Though I guess if I plugged the radiator air release then felt the portion of pipe I can get reach maybe I can see if it stays cold indicating there is no break in the pipe? Unless there is a better way someone might suggest?

Lets start with the updated diagrams.


Here are some mark-outs from what I can see are where additions were added to the home over the years.


Here is a picture of the back of boiler. Before someone mentions it there is a slight leak or condensation dripping off the boiler auto fill piping. I am planing to address this ASAP.


Next here is that 8' length of pipe that connects the two mains RI_SteamWorks asked to see. Sorry pic is dark. take my word for it. the pipe connects.




here is pic of that #4 Hoffman vent (labeled in my diagram above) it is on the returning 1" copper pipe coming from the family room back to the boiler. this guy vents steam entire time boiler is running. I'm working on getting it off with WD40 its not budging yet. still soaking. I've ordered an exact replacement for it. hope that was right decision. That other vent in my diagram is burried up in joist cant really get a good pic. It looks very different/bigger from the #4 Hoffman.


Here is picture of end of 28' main (labeled on diagram above).
it takes a 90 deg bend as you see in pic then is capped.


Here is pic of that 90 deg bend and cap.



Now for the family room addition crawl space!
Here is pic of 17' run (labeled in diagram) heading to farthest family room radiator.


Here is the connection between that Iron pipe and the 1" copper return.


and another closer up of that connection


one more of the same


Here is the 16' run (labeled in diagram above) where 1 1/2" branches off to feed the second family room radiator. This one does not tie into that 1" copper that the other family room radiator connects to. Though it is the same pipe that feeds the other radiator.


With the provided details I guess questions are:

1. Does anything look horribly wrong?
2. Do I have both a sloping away and sloping toward boiler system? Is the copper pipe a "wet return"?
3. As mentioned in beginning of my post. Can anyone suggest a better way investigate a if pipe hidden in structure is leaking before ripping apart walls?
4. How many vents need to be added?
5. Where?
6. What kind?

Jesse

Fred

That pipe that takes off to the left, in the 7th picture, after your diagram looks like it pitches away from the pipe with the copper return. Does that pipe have another drip/return at the end of it? How does that condensate return?
That copper pipe is a wet return if it is below the water line of the boiler. Otherwise it is a dry return that I assume drops somewhere below the boiler water line.
Are you losing water? If the buried pipe has a leak, I would think you would have a noticeable water loss.
That vent is just too small. Replace each with a Gorton #2, if you have the headroom. My preference is the Barnes and Jones Bigmouth. They are shorter than the Gortons, solid brass, vent ing is twice that of a Gorton #2 and cost about the same as a Gorton #2, maybe a little less.
You can add them where the old vents are now. They are 3/4" and it looks like your fitting is also 3/4"

Sailah

Heat the hell out of the fitting your pipe wrench is on, vent will back right out.

WD40 is for keeping rust off tools. I use PB Blaster if it's semi important to get off. Kroil if it is a must.

Acetone and ATF fluid mixed 50/50 is also an excellent penetrant. I keep some for soaking parts.

Jesse_6

Thanks Fred thanks Sailah. 7th pic pipe going left is short run of pipe heading to family room radiator top left corner of my diagram.


Didn't put a level on it but believe it slops up to radiator. The copper runs along floor of crawl space comes through a wall then drops down low and runs along wall enters boiler low in back.

Thanks suggestions about frozen fitting I got it loose. New Hoffman is installed for now. I'm actually noticing a difference in performance from just this change.

Here are some more pics of how that copper runs back to the boiler. the copper is fitted to iron on other side of wall you see in first pic. so you are looking at iron returning to boiler.









View of pipes from other side of boiler so we get better view.







I understand i need to replace the #4 hoffman with
Barnes and Jones Bigmouth. I can confirm threading is 3/4

To revisit last questions
1. Does anything look wrong with this setup?

2. Do I have both a sloping away and sloping toward boiler system? Is the copper pipe a "wet return"? Hopefully new pics help answer this.

3. As mentioned in beginning of my last post. Can anyone suggest a better way investigate a if pipe hidden in structure is leaking before ripping apart walls?

4. How many vents need to be added?
5. Where?
6. What kind? should I use all Barnes and Jones Bigmouth?

Thanks

Jesse

Fred

Those copper pipes look like wet returns. The water lines look like they could spring a leak at any moment. That should be taken care of. The boiler piping looks pretty good from what I can see.
You mention that that pipe I questioned, in your 7th picture pitched towards the radiator. That's not right. It should pitch back, towards the Main.
Why are you questioning a possible leak in piping behind a wall? Is there a wet spot visible on that wall or ceiling? Are you losing a lot of water? Most pipes that leak are horizontal, not vertical, in a wall and usually a wet return, in the basement.

Abracadabra

Jesse said:

View of pipes from other side of boiler so we get better view.

The copper pipes in that picture that lead to the right? Those are wet returns? If so, what EDR is attached to those wet returns? I'm doubting they are of sufficient size.

Jesse_6

https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/editor/fy/qbw24d4h1v2b.jpg
Abracadabra the pipes u are asking about are looped into plumbing for my auto fill. Look at this pic better perspective