Group Consensus Desired On this Install

New England SteamWorks

Fred said:

@RI_SteamWorks Said: Also, drips out at the ends still a mystery.

The drips out at the ends of the mains may not be as mysterious as the piping near the boiler. I've seen mains that are counter flow out from the boiler and then change pitch to become parallel flow further out in the system.

Right. But in this case the mains pitch continuously upward, and the drip tees are located before the last takeoffs. So in effect, on both branches, they only drip the last two take-offs...

Fred

So strange.

Danny Scully

Ok @RI_SteamWorks , I'll offer my 2 cents. While the bushing might look old, it more likely is just old stock (if you see newer teflon/pipe sealant. 2) the dead men didn't necessarily avoid unions, my father and brothers house (built by the same builder) have unions in the basement before every radiator take off. 3) is there any chance the drips at the end of the mains are there because the pipe size for counterflow couldn't handle those last 2 radiators? I know that's a stretch, but just a thought.

New England SteamWorks

Danny Scully said:

Ok @RI_SteamWorks , I'll offer my 2 cents. While the bushing might look old, it more likely is just old stock (if you see newer teflon/pipe sealant. 2) the dead men didn't necessarily avoid unions, my father and brothers house (built by the same builder) have unions in the basement before every radiator take off. 3) is there any chance the drips at the end of the mains are there because the pipe size for counterflow couldn't handle those last 2 radiators? I know that's a stretch, but just a thought.

I agree that the bushing is just old stock, not old. And your theory about the drip tee location is the best I've got. Thanks.

Canucker

I'm with @Ironman , the original contractor doesn't appear to be able to learn. I wouldn't let them touch it unless you were there to supervise @RI_SteamWorks If you're willing to set it up, maybe with some help from @Erin Holohan Haskell , I'd be willing to donate some money to help this lady get a system that works properly.

Sailah

I'll donate labor and any parts needed

New England SteamWorks

To be honest, I find the kindness and offers of donations here a little overwhelming! If the donations were to be needed, how would one go about this ethically? I've read about websites (crowd sourcing?) that raise money, should the non-profit head this up?

Canucker

@RI_SteamWorks I think you should do what you're planning by approaching the non profit and let them know that the system as installed is not working. If that doesn't get any resolution, I'd be willing to donate to help, @Erin Holohan Haskell would be the best person to ask. I believe she set up the oil heat cares fundraiser awhile back.

KC_Jones

Not sure if this would help, but I actually have some pipe and fittings (Ward cast) that I don't anticipate ever using. If you got to a point of donations and such I could see what it took to ship you what I have, or give you a list of what I have to pick from....in addition to donating what I can afford.

New England SteamWorks

You know, this thread has become pretty informative, and when you couple that with the offers of donations, very sincere as well. So rather than take all of the time compiling an essay I decided to just pick up the phone and given them this link. They have it now and should be reading shortly, so if anyone has anything to add, a good time would be right about now.

We'll see...

nonprofit

what this lady failed to tell you is that the thermostat was replaced 7 times because someone kept taking them off of the wall what she also failed to telling you is that someone had turned the pressure trol up to 9 pounds. She or someone has overfilled it three times this unit was inspected by the city of providence and passed

New England SteamWorks

Even if the pressuretrol was turned up to 9lbs, it is only a safety device, not a governor. If sized and piped correctly the system should never produce that much pressure. And definitely not with the mild weather we have so far experienced.

New England SteamWorks

And thank you for responding, btw. The job of the inspector is to make sure that the boiler was installed safely. His job is not to determine if it was otherwise piped or sized correctly.

The intent here is not to cast aspersions, but rather to get the homeowner a properly functioning heating system. The installation manual is posted above and it clearly was not followed in this case. I am sure it wouldn't take much to have a Weil McLain/Williamson rep weigh in here to confirm, should you so desire.

KC_Jones

nonprofit said:

what this lady failed to tell you is that the thermostat was replaced 7 times because someone kept taking them off of the wall what she also failed to telling you is that someone had turned the pressure trol up to 9 pounds. She or someone has overfilled it three times this unit was inspected by the city of providence and passed

This does not explain the FACT that the piping is completely wrong. The manual very clearly shows this. Please explain how one can argue a fact? It is either correct or it isn't and that boiler isn't....period.

I would think you as the group paying for this work would be upset that the contractor has essentially taken you for a ride. Why side with the person that took your money to do something wrong? If you took your car to the mechanic and they returned it in worse working order would you be upset with the mechanic or the person that told you the mechanic did it wrong? You currently appear to be upset with the messenger.

As was said passing an inspection is essentially meaningless when it comes to proper piping on the steam side of things. They essentially just make sure the boiler isn't going to blow up the house, they don't have a care at all if it works correctly. The manual from the manufacturer is what matters here and I will say it again, that piping isn't even close.

Sailah

nonprofit said:

what this lady failed to tell you is that the thermostat was replaced 7 times because someone kept taking them off of the wall what she also failed to telling you is that someone had turned the pressure trol up to 9 pounds. She or someone has overfilled it three times this unit was inspected by the city of providence and passed

I would think if you are the non profit that paid for this system to be installed, you'd want it done correctly. And it has been pointed out, amiably and with specificity, that it was not. The anecdotal evidence being that @RI_SteamWorks was somehow alerted to the system not performing correctly.

He is a consummate professional, his work that he posts pictures of gets universal acclaim and admiration. And he's garnered enough goodwill that complete strangers are willing to donate time and resources to ensure that your client remains comfortable before the cold weather sets in. That alone should tell you his intentions are honorable.

I would think you'd welcome his input if for nothing else than to pass along information to the original contractor to rectify the installation deficiencies.

In my humble opinion of course.

Steamhead

nonprofit said:

what this lady failed to tell you is that the thermostat was replaced 7 times because someone kept taking them off of the wall

Maybe they got frustrated with the system not working properly?

ChrisJ

nonprofit said:

what this lady failed to tell you is that the thermostat was replaced 7 times because someone kept taking them off of the wall what she also failed to telling you is that someone had turned the pressure trol up to 9 pounds. She or someone has overfilled it three times this unit was inspected by the city of providence and passed

Thermostat problems noted.

However, the boiler is piped wrong according to the manufacturer of the boiler. It also does not function properly, because it is piped wrong. It's a shame even at nine psig this boiler still failed to heat a building.

It doesn't matter who inspected it and passed it. IT'S WRONG.

We understand this was done for free.
However, we're also willing to help others correct it for free. Mistakes happen, correcting them is what's important.

Mark Eatherton

You will catch more flies with honey than you will vinegar. I'd be willing to pay for a copy of TLAOSH that you can then deliver to the contractor. He just doesn't know, what he doesn't know. He knows how to cut, thread and fit pipes, so he thought he'd be able to replace this boiler.

It's not rocket science, right? Right, it's HARDER than rocket science. As for getting the press involved, I wouldn't even consider that until all other efforts have failed. This industry doesn't need anymore negative press coverage.

As for working with the NPO, these folks don't have the expertise to make an intelligent decision. You'd do well as others have said, by thanking them for their efforts (honey) and telling them that you are there to help. May open up a consulting opportunity for future steam projects.

Let me know if you want me to purchase the copy of TLAOSH, and I will have the elves ship it to you for delivery to the contractor.

And remember, we ALL started out not knowing what we were doing... Never too late to learn.

About the only thing that MIGHT be salvaged is the boiler and exhaust venting. Sawzall surgery for sure. Sawzallectomy...

ME

STEVEusaPA

Is @nonprofit really the non profit agency? Sounds like the contractor. I'd guess the agency forwarded this to the contractor. No mention about all the people willing to help with materials, donation.

New England SteamWorks

It's a great question. I do not know the answer. The response does seem to be more representative of the contractor, rather than a non-profit, wouldn't you say?

The nonprofit has my contact info, but chose to respond here, which I find odd.

KC_Jones

If it is the contractor they are proving some of the comments about not being willing/able to learn, which is just sad.

Erin Holohan Haskell

If you set up a Go Fund Me page for the homeowner, I'd be happy to share it on Heating Help. It's a shame this isn't a fit for Oil Heat Cares.

@Mark Eatherton - That's so kind of you to offer to send a copy of The Lost Art, but I can take care of it and send a copy if the contractor is interested. Just let me know.

KC_Jones

This is the best place on the net.

Fred

Like others have said, I too doubt that @nonprofit , who posted here is actually the non profit who paid for the installation. I'm sure they'd be more sympathetic to the lady's circumstances. They did after all pay to have a significant job taken care of for her. I think a follow-up call to them is certainly in order. That will tell the story. Having said that, we need to figure out how to get this lady some heat and maybe ask her if, in fact thermostats have been removed and why. and by whom. I'm sure she is not taking them off the wall for Christmas gifts. I'm also sure she is likely not the person who set the Pressuretrol at 9 PSI and even so, that setting is really moot because the Pressuretrol is just there for safety (or should be).
We need a plan, plane and simple. We need to understand what recourse the non profit has and if they have even paid for this install yet. We need to ask the installer if they will correct the installation and install it to the manufacturer's specifications an, if so, when. Winter is upon us. If the non Profit and/or the installer will not take some immediate action, then we need to move forward with getting the install corrected and, once done, follow up with whatever we can do to recoup the cost of those corrective actions. I would hope the installation company wouldn't want to attract pubic attention to this situation, as it relates to creating a situation where an elderly person is literally left in the cold or that they may have taken advantage of a non profit's good intentions. Hopefully, the installation company can learn how a steam system should be installed and remain in good standing with the non profit and the community the serve. The media today is rapid and can be brutal when the elderly are put in these kinds of situations.

Mark Eatherton

Erin Holohan Haskell said:

If you set up a Go Fund Me page for the homeowner, I'd be happy to share it on Heating Help. It's a shame this isn't a fit for Oil Heat Cares.

@Mark Eatherton - That's so kind of you to offer to send a copy of The Lost Art, but I can take care of it and send a copy if the contractor is interested. Just let me know.

I have to tell you, your mother and father raised one sweet daughter when they raised you.

Let's see how this turns out moving forward.

Thank you Erin,

ME

Erin Holohan Haskell

Thanks, @Mark Eatherton. I'm just inspired by all of you.

j a_2

I think they are way in over there head if that's how they do there installs.....flipping burgers may be a better way for them to go....jmo

KC_Jones

@RI_SteamWorks any news on this situation?

Koan

Maybe the lady kept removing the thermostat so the system would stop banging LOL - evidently it wasn't working anyway!

New England SteamWorks

No news. Letter/essay completed over weekend and released today to higher-ups.

Fred

Thanks for all your effort on this issue @RI_SteamWorks .

New England SteamWorks

Weekly Update:

Homeowner has received the following letter:

Dear Mrs. (redacted),

My name is (redacted), and I am a Constituent Representative in the Mayor’s Center for City Services.

I’m writing to let you know that we received your message regarding heating issues and we are currently working with the City Department of Inspections and Standards to resolve this issue. We will make sure to provide you with regular updates on the progress of your service request until a resolution is reached. The reference number for your request is # 2167005.

At least she has a case#?

LionA29

Now she can follow up with that case # and hopefully there is an assigned inspector that can actually give some details about the progress of the case.
Thanks for the update @RI_SteamWorks

KC_Jones

One possible problem, wouldn't the city need an inspector that knows steam to actually be able to push anything forward? It was already stated it was inspected and approved. I am quite curious how this goes.

Fred

At least now (hopefully) he has @RI_SteamWorks analysis of the problems and (again) hopefully he will be an inspector who cares enough try to understand the issues that have been raised. I hope they understand there are a lot of eyes on this situation and I hope he looks at the owner's manual and does a little research on his own and maybe even look at this thread.