New Boiler - New Problems

Aveeight

Hi Steam Experts! I need your help diagnosing a problem.

I had my old oil/steam boiler replaced and converted to a gas/steam about 8 weeks ago. The old boiler was from the early to mid 90s and was a Weil McLein. I don't have any of the specs on it, the only thing I recall is it was about 120,000 BTU, I don't have the steam output. It had a summer/winter hot water hook up. It was old but it worked well for the 6 years we have lived here. No frequent water hammer (maybe one bang a month), no real issues with uneven heat to all radiators (after tweaking the venting in year 1), everything worked pretty ok. The reason for the change was our oil tank started leaking and had to be torn out, the boiler was 20+ years old and the water heater portion was acting up and starting to leak from corrosion, and our electric/gas company gave a great rebate to have a gas line run. So we switched.

The company that installed it really seemed like they knew what they were doing and the main installer even referenced The Lost Art of Steam heating a few times.

The install was finished around 9/20 and they came back around 10/15 to do a start up (because it was 90 degrees here in SE Pennsylvania in late September). The start up was fine and everything seemed great, but we didn't run the heat at all until 11/1.

It went bad mid-November when the temperate dropped. The first thing that happened about 2 weeks ago, which I only bring up to tell the entire story in case it matters, is one of the risers to the first floor cracked with a dime sized hole. I assume this is because the 20 ft of cast iron steam main around it was held on basically by the riser (and 3 others) which was leaning on the foundation edge for 80 years, I never gave this thought but there are no hangers on the entire side of the wall. I plugged the hole with JB Weld, which is holding to date, and a professional is coming to replace the riser (to a first floor radiator) on this Wednesday. I also installed a fairly robust hanger at that area on the main to relieve some of the strain.

Also, now that the system is on for > 20 minutes at a time, we are (were?) experiencing some crazy water hammer. I think I solved most of this by adjusting some of the first floor radiator levels (2 pennies under the feet seemed to do it). I did that 2 days ago and the water hammer is almost entirely gone so far. That isn't my big problem, but again - just giving full details.

The big problem is the water level and the main vent. For the last 7 days, the system has been on much more then in the past month (since it's hitting 25-30 over night). When it stays on for a while, the water level is dropping to the point where the auto-feeder is pumping in more water - which is totally fine once in a while I know, but it is too frequent. Its added about 10 gallons over the last 14 days according to the LED read out. Where is the water going you ask? Out the main vent. The main is spouting water by the gallon at least once a day. Last night it dropped about 1.5 gallons of water I estimate from the puddle size. It does this when the system is on for a while. I took the main off and it seems fine, opens and closes, and I cleaned it in some vinegar to remove any build up.

I am also getting almost no steam to my last radiator, which has a riser set about 6 inches from the main vent.

The new boiler is a Williamson GSA 150

The pressuretrol is set to .5 with a diff of 1. The gauge (a 30 psi) shows the max pressure to be about 2 psi when (if) that cuts off. The cut off seems to be working.

I have read Dan's book but I am at a loss about Hartford loops, near boiler piping, "A" dimensions, cut offs, etc. I have a theory that either the dry return is partially clogged (unlikely right?) or that the piping is wrong and the system is pushing steam back up the dry return under pressure and the condensate is way higher then it used to be.

I am attaching a number of pictures of the new set up, the piping, and the main/return area.

The company is coming up Wednesday to replace the broken riser and look at this - I'd love to have some idea what to have them look at to fix this! (It used to work... famous last words).

Thanks!

JohnNY

Wow. How terrible.

KC_Jones

I see they installed a skim tapping, but have they skimmed it? You would know because they should have been there for hours with water barely dribbling out of the skim tapping. I ask because it sounds like you could be surging, basically sucking a lot of water out of the boiler and sending it into the system.

The main vent is probably bad. Nothing but air should ever come out of it. If water or steam come out it's bad and needs replaced. That being said I would also theorize you don't have enough main venting, if that is the only vent. How long and what size are your main(s)? If you post that information we can recommend how much venting you need.

Question, how did they size this boiler? From the old one or did they measure all the radiators in the house and size from that?

STEAM DOCTOR

Any possibility that you changed the pitch of the main when you installed the hanger

Aveeight

@Steam Doctor - I did not change the pitch with the hanger, that area is pitched great (there is a picture attached with the new hanger) but they absolutely did change the pitch of the main leaving the header. It sort of makes a G shape around the basement, and the first part now pitches toward the boiler (where it used to always pitch away).

@KC Jones They did a fire up thing where the guy was here for a while, but I wasn't there the entire time. I assume he skimmed it, he had buckets of dirty water after.

The main is pretty long, probably 50-60 ft, maybe a little more. It wraps around 3 full sides of the basement. I always assumed it was under vented from reading about it, but it worked. The main vent is a Hoffman 75. The radiators do vent a fair bit when its on.

Here is a gif of the leaking vent. http://imgur.com/a/Khc8o

adambnyc

The water in that site glass looks really really dirty. That boiler needs a good cleaning and skimming. You are probably surging badly.

Aveeight

@adambnyc - what is surging? And how do I fix that? Would surging cause the water to rise that much in the main vent piping? That is probably 3 ft above the water line and its about 30 ft of 1" pipe back to the vent.

adambnyc

Surging is a likely cause of the issue your having. Dan says it best here

https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/reasons-why-the-water-is-bouncing-in-the-gauge-glass-and-where-to-look-for-solutions/

adambnyc

The boiler water looks so dirty, I would drain it completely and refill. I'd also take the Gerry Gill wand to the boiler and clean it out. Also should be skimmed. Sounds like the boiler was never properly cleaned after installation.

KC_Jones

Surging is the water level dropping dramatically because water is being pushed out into the main. This happens due to oils on the water causing uneven boiling and generally erratic behavior. Once the water surges it can cause the LWCO to feed water and eventually you have an overfill or so much water in the main it comes out the vent.
Either way the vent is dead and you most likely need more skimming. Here is a video showing what skimming looks like for your reference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkoY9xrdpcY

Aveeight

Surging definitely sounds like a likely suspect. I will drain the tank and refill today and go through that link for more info.

So the piping looks ok?

Scott M_2

Is that a capped supply tapping in the picture?Dont know off the top of my head does the boiler call for both?That would explain the surging.

Jamie Hall

Several questions. First, is the water level on the new boiler the same as the old? It should be. If not, check all over and make sure that any wet returns still are, and dry returns still are. Even a few inches up or down can cause problems.

Second, I agree with @Scott M -- is that a capped riser on the boiler, and if so, why wasn't it used?

Third, is that an unhappy little piece of copper I see in the take off to what I presume is the main from the header? Oh dear...

Fourth, if they changed the pitch of the main back to the boiler, and that bit of copper is what hooks the main to the riser, that's trouble. Any condensate in that main is trying to get back through that riser, and getting tossed back by the steam going to other way. You either need to fix the pitch of the section that was tilted back, or repipe that section to create a drip to a wet return.

EBEBRATT-Ed

GSA 150 is supposed to have (1) 2 1/2" riser, 2 1/2" header and 1 1/2" equalizer. Doesn't look like that's what you have.

I prefer a nipple and a cap to a plug so that doesn't bother me however the GSA 150 brochure shows the capped tapping being use for the riser....doesn't shop two tappings in the install manual....don't know if that matters which is used for the riser.

also doesn't look like you have a proper Hartford loop if I am looking at this right. and what pipe is the return?? The 1 1/4" ?? copper or the little one that looks like 3/4"??

definitely need skimming/cleaning

Fred

Didn't we see this boiler a few months ago and wasn't mention made about that capped riser? Seems like we are possibly discussing the same issues and it doesn't look like anything has changed. It needs:
- multiple slow skims
- Way more venting on that main, probably two Barnes and Jones Bigmouths
- Main that was pitched differently near the boiler needs to be repitched
- It would be great if That second riser out of the boiler, that's capped could be used.
- That copper, from the header to the main should be replaced with black pipe.

Aveeight

Thanks for all the suggestions.

@Scott M The manual, which I have since read several times, makes no mention of a 2nd riser. It looks like it should be plugged but I think they ran a small nipple and a cap because ... I don't know. Could that be an issue? I can throw a cap on myself I am sure.

@Jamie Hall The water level seems to be the same. This is a dry return (I think, the return line, after the Hartford loop, is above the water level the entire way back to the main).

See above on 2nd riser. Page 11 of this document is the install instruction: http://www.williamson-thermoflo.com/sites/default/files/field-file/t_gsa_manual.pdf

It seems like it is piped ok...but I am here looking for that confirmation!

Yes, the header is black iron but there is copper going up to the main. There is also a giant valve there, a king valve I think they called it?

So that definitely has to pitch down and away from the main header then right? I thought so. I will bring that up with the installer. That should be a fairly easy fix.


@EBEBRATT-Ed Thanks for confirmation on the install, yes they used a nipple and cap, I read the manual and that seems ok. The header is 2.5 in but the riser might be 2 in copper. The return looks like 1 in copper.

The 3/4 (or really 1/2) is the water feed line. The return in the hartford loop looks like 1 in copper.

@Fred - No? I just got this installed, so I haven't posted this before. Was that another user?

Thanks for the video and document on skimming!

So I did a 90 minute skim until the water ran (mostly) clear after about 75 minutes. The bucket I was using was pretty dirty so I am not 100% sure it was crystal clear but it looked very clear coming out of the skim pipe.

I am going to look into more venting. I am not sure how much I have to play with, the piping there is very constrained by the wall/ceiling. I don't feel comfortable changing the steam main/return line. Any advice there?

Fred

Aveeight said:

Thanks for all the suggestions.

@Fred - No? I just got this installed, so I haven't posted this before. Was that another user?

If not the same boiler, clearly the same installer. I'll have to try and find that post.