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Thoughts on rerouting a 1" CU, including any tricks?

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Redrum
Redrum Member Posts: 126
Hi;

I would love to learn any new sweating tricks that might help me in this challenge, otherwise, suggest the most appropriate reroute. Please see the attachments

Two story cape, western new york area (winter is winter), wall in question faces north west (weather side).

I gutted the kitchen and found that the supply pipe for the upstairs came from the basement on an interior wall, and travelled through a soffit and up to go to the upstairs. Now that the soffitt is not in the plans, I need to reroute.

I have noticed that all vertical runs in this house went up and down in interior walls. Makes sense. However, there is a horizontal run through a cold drawl space between two front dormers. It was insulated, but I added more.

If you look at the pictures, a reroute through the same interior wall is not practical (to me anyhow) because there is a floor joist right at the wall top place (i.e. sweating elbow is not accessible, unless someone knows a trick. I could notch them both and use nail plates, but do I want to?

I could reroute through an exterior wall, but even better, one area of the "exterior wall" has a heated porch behind it. But, as I noted, a future owner could turn the heat off, as it is a separate zone. My thought is to just run it through the "exterior" wall and use pipe insulation (like the crawlspace), especially on the wall that is backed by the porch.

Note that it is 1" CU pipe, but I could use 3/4" as all of the baseboards that I replaced in the house are 3/4" WM.

I think I am either making too much of this, or overlooking something, so I am interested in what you pros or experienced homeowners might have to say.

Thank you
Jim




Comments

  • Redrum
    Redrum Member Posts: 126
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    Hi hg, unfortunately not without disturbing drywall or flooring. The interior wall is a stairwell, so I could easily cut out a section of drywall on the other side of that wall, drill, feed the horizontal piece, bring the vertical up from below and sweat the elbow. I have done my share of drywall finishing, so that's not too big.
    A deal. Once open the reroute sweat would be super easy. But is it worth it over a reroute down the other walls?

    Jim
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    I wouldn't move it to an outside wall, even if there is a porch there. Sooner or later someone is going to shut that zone off because they don't use the porch in the winter and then you'll (they'll) be opening walls up anyway. Most codes don't even allow water lines to be on outside walls anymore, at least in these parts.
  • Redrum
    Redrum Member Posts: 126
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    A good thought, but nope, while I can access through other side of wall, stairwell, it's a double joist, that is, I would cut drywall and see.., the other joist. The elbow and down pipe would be in between 2 joists in a 4" blind space, blind both from below (top plate) and I am betting above (top plate on star well wall). Hmmmmm......
  • Redrum
    Redrum Member Posts: 126
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    Makes sense Fred, which is why I asked, but why would they allow the pipe through the crawl space, although it was done in the 60s? It seems 8' through a wall adjacent to a heated space is better than say 12' through a crawl space with nothing adjacent? I'll bet you'll say the crawlspace is wrong too ;)

    Jim
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    Is there a wall opposite the outside wall or is it open concept at that end of the room? If there is a wall there, can you move the vertical line to that wall and then run parallel, between your joists to reconnect?
  • Redrum
    Redrum Member Posts: 126
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    Hi Fred, When you are facing the north wall as in the picture, to the left (west) is another outside wall, to the right (east) is the stairwell with the double joist, and behind (south) is the center beam of the house, which I recently opened up from 8' to 14'. Like you said, open concept unfortunately. The room is about 14' deep to the beam, but the stairwell wall is about 10' deep, the remaining 4' being an open hallway. It is possible to have access to between the joists at the end of that wall to assemble and sweat (see pic), but that is where I'll need to put the 3 switch box for kitchen entry, and hall switch on the stairwell side. So, a pipe isn't practical.

    I think the choice is between notching, and running through the porch wall, and wrapping pipe insulation, enclosed is wall insulation.

    With notching, the double top plate does nothing, so taking half of the 3 1/2" won't impact anything. With the joist (2X8) I would be taking out 2" of the 7 1/4". Then protect with plates.

    If I wanted to get real extreme, I could support the joist, cut a foot out of the joist, sweat, then install two headers on either side (between adjacent joists, plus top plate supports the buried end of headers. Like a skylight rough in.

    So, that's my quandry....any further thoughts are appreciated.

    I also found that I have another pipe (next baseboard) running right where I want to put a line of recessed lights (above edge of counter top). Great... :)

    Jim
    All
    ot of work.
  • BBros
    BBros Member Posts: 41
    edited November 2016
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    I'm a builder. You don't want to take 2" notch out of a 2x8 load bearing floor joist. The maximum is less than 1 1/4" (d/6, when actual 7 1/4" depth) and that's only if you are in the outer 1/3 of the span. You can google notching and boring guides, they're widely available, but generally speaking, avoid all notching.

    If you think you can sweat a 90 in the gap between joists over the wall, then that's the plan. Opening drywall in the stairwell is a minor inconvenience... you already know that. It looks to me like there is only about 2 1/2" gap though, and I question the ability to make that joint (I know I couldn't!). Cutting the top plates back for access and patching them would be fine, as you suggested.

    Alternatives are to lower the ceiling 3/4 (and notch a 1/4" into joists). Or plan to have crown moulding around the room and hide the pipe in there.

    What about 3/4 Pex or PAP? I don't know the flow/capacity you need, but it would be easier to route wherever you wanted to go. Just a matter of drilling holes.

    Stay out of the exterior walls. It will be a problem eventually, no matter what you do. Flooding is expensive.
  • Brewbeer
    Brewbeer Member Posts: 616
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    My last house had a monoflow system which hung down about 6 inches from the floor joists. In order to finish the basement, the 1 inch monoflow loop needed to be moved up into the joist space. Since the two main runs up and down the house were perpendicular to the direction of the joists, what I did was bore 1 3/8 inch diameter holes through the center of each joist along a line. Then I went outside, and bored a hole through the siding and rim joist, such that all the holes were perfectly lined up, which allowed a length of copper pipe to be fed through into the line of holes through the joists. Once fed through, the pipe was cut in the basement for each of the T's that fed the radiators. This allowed for the sheet rock to be installed on the joists flush to the ceiling.

    If you can work with PEX, that would be easier, and perhaps less expensive, too.
    Hydronics inspired homeowner with self-designed high efficiency low temperature baseboard system and professionally installed mod-con boiler with indirect DHW. My system design thread: http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/154385
    System Photo: https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/FileUpload/79/451e1f19a1e5b345e0951fbe1ff6ca.jpg
  • Redrum
    Redrum Member Posts: 126
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    I am very appreciative of the suggestions. BBeer, I loved the story about bringing the pipe in from outside. When I installed the 14' double LVL beam, I thought of doing the same, but found a way of snaking it in.

    I appreciate everyone's reluctance to route through the outside wall cavity, but it's already being done in my crawlspace, and that run does not have the adjacent heated space like a wall does (although it is heated below). Nobody has come right out and said "that was dumb, you don't want to repeat it" :smile: )

    I am familiar with Pex, but haven't used it and an unsure of what CU - pex adaptors are available, and, would you want them to be buried? They would have to be. Plus, I don't have the tools, but the guys that installed my boiler could be hired, or rent them. I am sure the connections are fine, but I'm a bit old school when it comes to a sweat joint.

    BBros, thank you. for 3/4" pipe, I could notch it less than 1 1/4", then even use a strong tie product, or sister it to strengthen. It's about 2-8" from the north wall. I would only notch that one joist that is "in the way" I would drill and feed through the remaining, probably with one splice. Lowering the ceiling is not an option, it's already a 7'6" ceiling and being open to everything.....A better option would be to redesign the kitchen layout to hide it

    Also, the more I look at it, if I were to support the offending floor joist on both sides, cut out say 6" where I want the pipe to go, install and sweat the pipe, then install two 2x8 headers in that space, the elbow would be in the remaining 3" space with 1 1/2" headers on either side (total 6"). One end of the headers can rest on the top plate and be screwed in from the stairwell, the other side is accessible for joist hangers.

    If you guys feel I should stay away from running it through the exterior wall, then I think my easiest best bet is to notch a little and protect (easiest) or do the header trick, which isn't that bad

    thanks again, this place is great. I know how to do alot, but get stuck and you guys are kind enough to help me (us) out.
    Jim
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    What is the height of the kitchen ceiling? I don't suppose you have any break in the ceiling lines between the kitchen and the open concept area beyond the kitchen (like a header between rooms) that would allow you to furrow out the kitchen ceiling with 2X2's so that you can tuck your pipe between the furrow strips? I did that in a bathroom in my home and in 25 years that I've been here, not one person has ever noticed there is a difference from room to room. Even when you stand in the doorway and look at the two ceilings, you don't see it. They are 10ft ceilings though.
  • BBros
    BBros Member Posts: 41
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    If you do the header plan, you *should* sister the unsupported joist that captures the headers. You can't transfer support to the neighboring joists without adding the strength to the span that you took out. I'm not sure if I'm relaying that to you properly, but basically if you cut a joist... you need to replace that carrying capacity somehow, not just transfer it to each side, or else there can be sag/bounce. Imagine cutting 2, 3, or 4 and just adding a header between the remaining joists... what would happen?

    I would rank cutting the joist entirely as a last option.

    Pex (or PAP) to Cu is done all the time, and yes in the walls. It really appears it would simplify your situation. Hiring your contractor to make those connections would be reasonable. My own house has a number of them, as it's largely piped in pex, but stubbed out in copper. No need for access after pressure tests.

    Pipe running through crawlspaces is different than exterior walls. Beyond the obvious that the ground generally stays warmer than the outside air, there is some form of access to that area presumably. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, if there is a problem, it doesn't flood your interior space. Of course it's possible that you run it through the wall and never have a problem, but I still wouldn't if there are other options.
  • Redrum
    Redrum Member Posts: 126
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    Hi Fred - ceiling is 7'6". Yes, the LVL X2 that I installed down the middle is 11 1/4", so it sticks out 4". I could route that pipe to the lvl, run along side of it, then down an interior wall after the jack and king studs at the end of the lvl. However, the lvl beam transitions to a wall, so I would have to fur out the wall as well. Seems like alot of work.

    Hi BBros;

    Crawlspace - ahhh, access. It's on the second floor in the roof area between two dormers, so it would be bad if it leaker, but I would be able to get to it fast.

    I understand about sistering the joist that lands at the header. I realize that the entire floor weight for that joist would be supported by the header because it's near the wall. Scratch that Idea, thank you for making me realize that.

    The trouble area that I'd like to have a pipe (horizontal), elbow, pipe (vertical) is trapped by double wall plate (below), floor (above), and two floor joists 3-4" apart. Can't sweat in that box. That's the problem. Can feed pex, and you guys are confident of the pex-copper couplings. Sounds like a solution.

    However, another thought on a sweat solution. The joist toward the inside of the room is not supported by a wall - can only drill a hole to pass pipe. But, the joist on the other side is resting on the wall in the picture, and accessible from the stairwell. I could cut a hole in the drywall, then used a 4" hole saw through the supported joist to access, and assemble and sweat through that hole., patch the joist, then drywall.

    The one other idea than makes you cringe is to use 3/4" (baseboards are 3/4" so not affecting flow), and cut 1" notch in the 7 1/4" joist and a bigger one in the top plates and either sister or use the strong tie stud shoe that plumbers use when they hog big holes in studs.

    https://www.strongtie.com/miscellaneousconnectors_woodconnectors/hss-ss_productgroup_wcc/p/hss.ss

    Jim
  • Redrum
    Redrum Member Posts: 126
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    One other idea. Support the floor joist that is in the way. Notch the floor joist and the top plate. Assemble the CU, full length vertical pipe, elbow, then stub into room (say 16"). Then, cut a sister 2X6 (say 4') and drill a hole that lines up with the notch. Slide the sister onto the pipe stub, move the assembly into place, attach the sister to the notched joist, attach with structural screws (I have some left over from the beam install).

    I think I like this best unless there is an issue. I helped a friend fix the front of his house where there was a rotted sill, rim joist, and some of the floor joist ends were damaged. We sistered, I think 8 - 10' to fix it. same concept here, sister the notch

    Jim
  • BBros
    BBros Member Posts: 41
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    The last idea where you patch the notch is fine. I had originally typed that into my response, but didn't want to get into suggesting structural plans as I'm not an engineer qualified to tell you exactly what's required (ask your inspector). Usually we have both sides of the joist available, and often use chunks of 3/4" advantech to use as gusset patches. You only have access to one side, so perhaps 2x lumber would be more appropriate. Copious amounts of glue, and a lot of fasteners... more than I think are necessary, but that's what the book says.

    Again, with the wall being so close, and it being part of the stairwell, chances of the joist ever being and issue are low, but better too plan on the worst (and follow the rules).
  • Redrum
    Redrum Member Posts: 126
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    Hi bbros, agree and that's what I'll do. Thanks to all your input to steering the conversation through several potential solutions to the one that is the most practical to me - figure out how to get it through the wall it's already going through.

    I'll notch the joist minimally and over build around it, as I have in similar situations.

    You saved me from burying it in a wall that might become exterior, should the porch zone be turned off. I didn't think of the "access" part. My bad, but that's where you all helped. Better to be super safe.

    Thanks again to all that have taken the time to offer suggestions.

    Happy turkey day

    Jim
  • Redrum
    Redrum Member Posts: 126
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    Hi,
    I thought I would give this thread a bump, as I finally got around to doing the work described above. I thought I would share the conclusion in case someone does a search for a similar challenge.

    Please see the picture. The problem was that I had to reroute a CU hydronic pipe that was in a kitchen soffit, and I was removing the soffit.

    The problem that I had was that the elbow from a horizontal run, down through an interior wall, needed to go through an area where the elbow was inaccessible, as it was sanwhiched between two floor joists, and the top plate of the wall. How to sweat?

    What I did was this. I notched the top plate, and an enclosing joist (supporting the joist first), then pre-sweated the horizontal/elbow/down pipe assembly. Once in place, I slid a "sister" joist section with drilled hole over the pipe, and secured it in place, basically shoring up the joist weakened by the notch. I then slid the other half of the reroute horizontal pipe into place, and assembled the remaining elbows and pieces, and sweated everything.

    Thanks to everyone that contributed to this discussion above, your insight and ideas generated this solution!

    Jim
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,633
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    Looks good. I don't think a building inspector would have an issue with it.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,452
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    Does look good. Nice job. Structural timber is interesting material! It's surprising, though, how many places I've seen over the years where some pretty careless work has been done with notching -- and I've seen some interesting (?) failures! But your solution should work just fine.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Redrum
    Redrum Member Posts: 126
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    Thanks for the comments guys. I tend to overthink/overbuild things. As I get older I find that I ask myself "how can this fail?" more often and build according to my paranoia. ;)

    Jamie, not sure I understand your comment on structural material, but I am betting it's the poor lighting/color for the cell phone photo, and, the existing structure is circa 1960's fir, and the "sister" I added was a piece of 2X8 pine laying around (ripped down a bit).

    Jim
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,452
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    I was just remarking the timber -- as a structural material -- is fascinating stuff. Back in another lifetime I designed a number of timber structures (bridges, barns, what have you) and I found it great to work with -- when you understand it. Much more fun than steel or concrete. You've done a nice job with that sistering.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England