Why are there knuckleheads in our fields, (and others)?

nicholas bonham-carter

Here is some interesting reading:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

Especially interesting in these times.--NBC

KC_Jones

Reminds me of this short video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvVPdyYeaQU

SWEI

Or George Carlin.

Paul48

There it is...in a nutshell. You go about every day, trying to survive the stupidity. From the time you get your coffee in the morning. Sometimes it becomes necessary to get away from it all. Go to a cabin in the woods and leave all the so-called modern conveniences behind. It's the only way to preserve your sanity.

Paul48

It's funny that this topic comes up now. I've been struggling lately with the abundance of stupidity, and have been having discussions with folks about it. I'm on vacation this week, and I need it.

BobC

For the last eight years of my working life I worked as a technician repairing mail sorting machines for USPS. I started just before 9/11 ( I was at Northrup Grumann outside of Baltimore for training when the attack occurred).

Later that fall someone started a panic by sending anthrax through the mails. That threw a monkey wrench into how we handled the mail, the high speed sorting machines were a real concern. Everyone was told to watch out for any suspicious letters (we had pictures of the letters that had the anthrax in them) and to be especially careful about any powder leaking out of envelopes. If something seemed amiss the machine was to be shut down and everybody was to be moved away from the machine.

i was working on a broken machine one afternoon when I heard some shouting behind the next machine, I went over to investigate and found a mechanic having a shouting match with a mail supervisor. The machine operator found a torn letter with powder inside of it and she shut the machine off. She told that mechanic about it and he went over to investigate it; as soon as he looked at it he locked the machine out and told the workers to move away from the machine. I used my radio and told my supervisor he better have the manager come over ASAP.

The mail supervisor ordered the mechanic to vacuum up the powder and the mechanic to him where to go. I told the mail supervisor to leave the area and helped the mechanic rope off the machine while the mail supervisor was going ballistic. My manager showed up and ordered the mail supervisor out of the area, he said the inspectors were on the way to examine the machine.

I went back to the machine I was working on and when I looked up I saw the mail supervisor at the machine and HE WAS TASTING THE POWDER. I found the manager and told him, he just shook hi head and said "You just can't fix stupid".

That mail supervisor was moved over to another processing plant but he came back a year later and I think the experience made him more stupid than he was before tasting what could have been powdered anthrax.

Bob

DanHolohan

I am stupid in more areas than I can count. If we're honest, I think most of us would admit that.

Paul48

Nope.....I won't do it Dan........You're not stupid.

BobC

We all make mistakes but most people learn from those mistakes. Some however just stumble from one blunder to the next.

Paul48

I'm not so deluded to think that I am, by any means, a genius. I attempt to live my life by using common sense and experience. I am not afraid to seek wisdom where ever I might find it.
It is tiresome when you have dealings with 8 folks throughout the day, and 6 are completely incapable of doing their job. Even though it's not politically correct to say so, and those six will undoubtedly need to be consoled.

Fred

I always say: "We are mostly as God intended us to be and hopefully he forgives us for the "Mostly" part." Just trying to put a bit of a positive spin on it.

njtommy

Stupid nope, lacking other areas? yes absolutely I will admit to that. I will just play my strengths in mechanical abilities as long as I can.

But yes their is a ton of Hackery in this trade. Coming from lack of knowledge and well just plain laziness.

DanHolohan

Thanks, Paul. I'm a student. Always have been. I ask many questions, and often question the answers. Just trying to learn, so I keep asking, and thinking. I try to help where I can and not judge people. I learn every day from everyone here.

We're all fragile. I've learned that it's best not to call others stupid because they'll rear up and hate for that and then we all lose. Just teach, and gently. It works. It does.

Paul48

I never call anyone stupid. That's why time away from the day to day grind is really important. You can't teach common sense, or what my grandfather called "horse-sense". There are many folks that have excellent memories, and multiple college degrees without an ounce of common sense. You just have to look to Washington D.C. to know this is true.

ChrisJ

DanHolohan said:

I am stupid in more areas than I can count. If we're honest, I think most of us would admit that.

DanHolohan said:

Thanks, Paul. I'm a student. Always have been. I ask many questions, and often question the answers. Just trying to learn, so I keep asking, and thinking. I try to help where I can and not judge people. I learn every day from everyone here.



We're all fragile. I've learned that it's best not to call others stupid because they'll rear up and hate for that and then we all lose. Just teach, and gently. It works. It does.

And this is why you cannot be stupid.

Sorry Dan, you're wrong and you know it.

Solid_Fuel_Man

If I go back and look at some of the work I did 15-20 years ago, I had some hacks. Didn't have the knowledge and was too bull-headed to ask. It takes humility and teachability for someone to become wise at anything. Those qualities are not something I possess, God Himself had to bring me to my knees, and in doing so, imparted humility and teachability. I cannot take credit for any of it. That certainly is not politically correct.

Taylor

Fred

We're havin church, up in here!

Mad Dog_2

It's all about HUMILITY....and having a conscience....Mad Dog

keyote

Theres a lot of causes,Standardized testing is one, it drew the cognitive elites out of mainstream society into unprecedented numbers into the university and white collar jobs, this not only caused a brain drain, but stigmatized blue collar work.
Unions were a good training system but for various reasons from abuse of power, loss of influence, aversion to new technology, to affirmative action no longer train as they used to.
American because of all the reasons in this comment are less likely to do any manual work themselves they can change a tire anymore let alone build their own hot rod, this makes them incompetent to judge good work or even a sense of a tradesmen's ability. Licensing is a two edged sword in many cases it legitimizes hacks, creates a barrier to the talented, and disincentivizes inspection. Technological advancement in all areas makes it difficult for anyone no matter how talented to know much more than a specific area of knowledge. Besides the body of knowledge the rapidity of innovation makes it difficult for rules of thumb to develop in time to be useful so average guys can be competent.Wage suppression due to many factors immigration being a big one, Truly competent building scientists which is what we are have more knowledge and time invested to say little of the work conditions than a white collar worker making a quarter of a million dollars a year few of us are compensated accordingly almost none of us outside the union can afford to pay workers at that level within the union sectors we can not discern who we pay that kind of money to and must hire who the courts order us to hire, usually the worst.Professionalization of the trades, Very of general contractors and engineers had worn the tools or at least worked along side some that had. todays construction managers are often yuppies who have never even driven a nail into a kool aid stand as often as not women and others who have no first hand knowledge of building things, they cant visualize the difference between an actual buildable detail and a concept,Todays archetects are interior designers. they and contractors used to be responsible for the blue print and the tradesman for following it today the blueprints for all the 3d cad crap are worthless and the men must make it work in the field because the large contractors found putting the money into tighter contracts against subs was cheaper than putting it into coordination they then owned. If i had a dollar every time one of my bosses said youre re-engineering the job for them Id be rich.But he doesn't stop me because he knows they will beat him up until their worthless design functions the way their concept worked. And he needs the next hospital school condo and the contractors cant be gotten around. Bosses are usually the sons or grandsons of founders and know little about the work they contract their skill is getting jobs but how can they price them profitably when they dont every ones mortgage is on the line to just get out of there.
Oh I could go on for volumes Thank god Im retiring next year

ChrisJ

I can't read that.

icy78

null
I can only count to 3 so only have 3 areas of stupidity!

BobC

@keyote The Stata center at MIT is a perfect example of how we've run off the tracks.



http://web.mit.edu/facilities/construction/completed/stata.html

That design won all kinds of awards when it opened in 2005, it is a perfect example of doing something that has no reason for being - just because you can do a thing does not mean you should do that thing. I'll guarantee it leaks kike a sieve and is a maintenance nightmare.

The funny thing is I worked with Ray Stata right after I got out of the army, he was as level headed a person as I ever knew back then.

Bob

DanHolohan

That's a Frank Ghery building, and it did leak. But Mr. Wright's buildings also leaked. ;-)

BobC

The design of Wrights houses was very interesting but the engineering left a lot to be desired. he should have had a builder check his plans before building it.

In both cases it's what happens when you allow form to over ride function. It's not hard to design a tight building, they have been doing it on a pretty regular basis for quite some time now.

Bob

Fred

Wow @keyote , It sounds like you are placing a lot of the blame on diversity in the workforce. I hope that's not your intent. If it is, you must remember your heritage too. Your people came here from somewhere. Sometimes poor quality happens because greedy people, regardless of heritage or gender take short cuts and use substandard materials/practices.

DanHolohan

My favorite FLW story. His skylight leaks over the rich guy's chair, which FLW also designed.

Rich guy complains.

FLW: "Someday there will be better caulking. In the meantime, move my chair."

Supreme arrogance at its shiniest.

DanHolohan

Fred, relax. It's Thanksgiving.

JUGHNE

IIRC FLW had that very comment for a large office building he did in maybe NYC? But he was right....silicone caulk and such did come along eventually.

Solid_Fuel_Man

Of the interviews I've seen of FLW, he seemed to be extremely arrogant. Kind of surprised me actually. I must admit I've always been a fan of his work and style. Mid-century modern themes with long low lines are beautiful IMHO.

@JUGHNE so did EPDM rubber roofing. His built-up bituminous flat roofs had much to be desired.

Taylor

DanHolohan

It was a house, and he was arrogant. We're supposed to tolerate genius. I heard that somewhere.

Harvey Ramer

I've heard, genius, is treading the line between insanity and sanity. They don't often fit well into social circles.

Paul48

If you think about it....that would be the perception of those looking at genius. So, Mr. Einstein, what are you working on lately........three days later, you wake up in an insane asylum, dribbling on yourself.

He had to explain his theories to geniuses.....imagine that.

DanHolohan

More about Mr. Ghery's projects:

http://www.constructiondive.com/news/lawsuit-gehry-designed-nyc-building-dripping-globs-of-sealant/431081/

keyote

I have no problem with genius, certainly no problem with hierarchy, or even with attempting to do whats never be done and thought to be impossible, western civilization was built by men like that, whats changed is things are built by committee, a conspiracy of dunces, now and responsibility is delegated. In times past a man was in charge his vision his responsibility to make it happen and his shame if he failed. Demotism disincentivises excellence. America can not even produce silicon pure enough for chips, In fact we can do very little anymore that is cutting edge.
@ wow Fred you caught on,Yeah I'm a diversity skeptic. Have you some evidence that diversity increases excellence, because heres my theory it increases not excellence, because it replaces results as the goal with diversity as the goal.I also fail to understand how decreasing excellence benefits anyone in a nation.
Where I came from? I came from the place where the guys who built the world did, so actually Im quite aware of where i came from. Its where im heading thats worrisome. Im sure women will eventually get as many Fields Medals as men. And New Guinea will overcome those guns germs and steel and launch its space station any day now, if we all can just signal holiness as well as you.

DanHolohan

Three words that prove to me that diversity increases excellence: New York City.

ChrisJ

DanHolohan said:

Three words that prove to me that diversity increases excellence: New York City.

It always has, and it always will.

DanHolohan

I was born on East 68 Street, Manhattan.

Harvey Ramer

Excellence is driven by the free market and the liberty of man to reap the rewards of what they create.

DanHolohan

Thanks, Harvey. What I also find excellent is a crowded subway car, filled with people representing dozens of countries, and all getting along.

And then, at the station where they get off, they drop a buck in the musician's hat.

It's nice.

keyote

HMM east 68 st ,The upper east side,least diverse place on the planet. [By diversity did you mean the irish and german superintendents of the wealthy co-ops , or the episcopalian presbyterian divide on the co-op boards?]
I went to school on east 68 st for a while, St Vincents,and St. jeans on 75 st, then I went home to the lower east side, where my deluded parents bought into diversity, and fought for my very life and the lives of my brothers.I now live in crown heights doing by bit to drive out the diversity and gentrify the city again.I bet you all live in really diverse suburbs voting to inflict diversity on those who cant afford to flee it.
This is an argument I dont really want to have, i should not have taken Freds bait but Im a stickler for reality, even when arguing theology its the old school jesuit in me,But I can not win because to do so would require my citing facts,and facts are beside the point here,holiness signaling became the point the minute Fred denounced me as a diversity dissenter.Lets just stipulate Im a hopeless deplorable heretic beyond redemption and leave it at that if you need the last word go ahead its yours.

DanHolohan

Thanks. I grew up with a great mix of people. We lived across the street (E. 79th) from my father's workplace, Glauber, Inc., a long-gone plumbing-and-heating supply house. My dad was the shipping clerk and that place was my playground, filled with fascinating characters who worked their hearts out to support the city and make a life for their families. Those were precious days and they just got better as I grew.

My father taught us to respect and learn from everyone. He was the best storyteller I ever knew. I miss him a lot, especially on days like this one.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences.