Closing a Big Mouth

curiousburke_2

After getting a new boiler, I just want to keep making the system better; steam is addictive. I put in two Big Mouth vents on my steam mains and I have a few related questions. Before I start, wow! That's a nice piece of equipment.

First, Im looking for a small leak and plan to plug all vents is there any problem with just plugging the outlet of a Big Mouth?

Second, I've read about the other adjustable vent from Barnes, and it made me wonder if the same idea could be used on a Big Mouth using different size bushings. The purpose would be to balance the two mains as, I think, Gerry Gill suggested.

Third, I have three dry returns but main vents are only two of them. Should I have a third? It would drain about 15' of 2" pipe.

Fourth, and unrelated. I notice my 3psi gauge reads substantial pressure (about 1/2 psi) before my main vents even close. How is this?

Thanks for the help!

Sailah

I'll just answer the first 2 questions.

1) Yes, you can screw in a pipe plug on the outlet of the Big Mouth, will cause no adverse effects.

2) I think you would have a difficult time throttling down the Big Mouth with bushings, although I guess it's possible. The other vent we make is the Vari-Vent, which does exactly that and does it in a controlled and infinite manner. It was born out of discussions I had with Gerry and I will say it works very well. It is not nearly as popular as the Big Mouth because I think people want "horsepower" over "control" sometimes. The venting capacity of the vari vent is 2.54CFM vs 3.6CFM for Big Mouth.

If you were to insist on doing it yourself to balance the mains, I would just use the same pipe plug and keep drilling out a small hole progressively larger until to reach the desired venting rate.

Or make your life a lot easier and just buy the right part

EBEBRATT-Ed

or put a globe valve on the vent outlet. sounds like your venting but the 1/2 psi would suggest your making steam faster than your venting

ChrisJ

curiousburke said:

Fourth, and unrelated. I notice my 3psi gauge reads substantial pressure (about 1/2 psi) before my main vents even close. How is this?



Thanks for the help!

Just a guess, either very dirty boiler water or the boiler is piped improperly?

Or, you have a lot more mains and boiler than the amount of big mouths you're using can cope with, but that seems unlikely if this is a residential system.

Fred

Another guess, without more details about the system, might be that the gauge isn't working properly. Did you notice if it was at "0" before the boiler fired? Maybe needs to be recalibrated. Where is it mounted? Is it on a pigtail?
If you have 3 dry returns, you probably have 3 mains or two mains and one of them has a branch off of it with a couple or more radiators. It should be vented too.

Jamie Hall

And again -- without more details... this is a two pipe system? If you don't vent the dry returns, it won't work well. Think about it: where is the air in the radiators going to go, once it gets through the trap? Into the dry return... and it has to get out of that return somewhere!

curiousburke_2

Thank you for all the replies! I wish there were an easy way to address each one.

Sailah: I did consider the Vari-Vent, and you're right, I just couldn't pass on the horsepower Also, I like that I can pipe the output because my vent is in the ceiling. I hadn't considered one of each. I like your idea of drilling a plug. In all honesty, this was mostly an academic question, or a idea, as my balance isn't way off.

EBEBRATT-Ed: don't think I actually am making steam faster than I'm venting because I stick my hand in front of the vent and air is just coming out lazily. Also, it's only a 382 EDR boiler and I have two big mouths, and my rad vents are varivalves. All I ever hear is puffs.

ChrisJ: I think and hope you're right about the dirty water. Skim and drain are on the list for today. Now I'm thinking this 1/2 psi thing might be occasional and just when the water is really dirty. Right before I noticed it, prompting this thread, I had been leak hunting, which involved filling all my return pipes with water. I think I may have pushed a lot of sediment from the returns into the boiler. I'm loath to think it could be the piping, but I'll follow this post with a pic for critique.

Fred: I'm 99% sure the gauge is working well. It sits at zero when not steaming, and it kinda float above zero shortly after steaming starts. I mounted it on the pigtail to the pressuretrol. As I write, I realize I forgot to flip it's protective shutoff cock before leak testing. Hopefully no harm was done. I have two mains and a branch as you guessed. Actually, that not quite right, there are two branches, but the other is very early, so it's like a third main and it only feeds two rads, which seem to live happily without a main vent. I'd have to measure, but I think that third pipe may be a little smaller, like 1 1/2" instead of 2".

Jamie: It is actually a one pipe system, sorry for the lack of details. Interesting, I had never thought about the air actually in the first vertical of the return. I guess there is plenty of capacity for it to get out going back against the descending condensate. Maybe i will pop on a third main vent. I now have two spare and working Hof #75, but they seem useless compared to the Big Mouth or even the varivalves for that matter.

On a completely different note. The CycleGard on my new boiler is driving me nuts. I can't believe it turns off power to the thermostat when it is testing
!!!

curiousburke_2

yes, I think I will change it out ... at least at some point. I have a non-battery Honeywell and the display blanks. It's also "smart", but I think it is not smart enough to know where it was before the power was cut.

ChrisJ

How clean is your water and does the gauge start at zero?

Your piping is great, so it's not that.

curiousburke_2

The gauge starts at zero, but the water has gotten very dirty with both suspended particles and floaty stuff. I'm skimming it now and I'll flush it after. I'd like to get a good cleaner, but those tablets don't seem to be available right now. Recommendations for a good new boiler cleaner and/or eater conditioner?

ChrisJ

curiousburke said:

The gauge starts at zero, but the water has gotten very dirty with both suspended particles and floaty stuff. I'm skimming it now and I'll flush it after. I'd like to get a good cleaner, but those tablets don't seem to be available right now. Recommendations for a good new boiler cleaner and/or eater conditioner?

I'd keep skimming and if possible build a wand to wash it out.
I never used a cleaner, I only use the tablets as treatment, not cleaner.

The wand is what finally worked best for me, though I had already skimmed 6 times or so and something like 30 gallons of water.

curiousburke_2

And the winner is ... dirty water. After skimming, I build no pressure until all my vents close, which simply doesn't happen this time of year unless I want my place to feel like Florida. I don't even need the radiator vents!!

Unfortunately, I'll probably need to keep skimming every weekend for awhile. I only have one small port that I could stick a wand, but if I get some time, I'll look into it. How is it that everyone doesn't need so much cleaning of a new boiler? Maybe too much pipe dope in my assembly?

I also insulated a 16' run of 1 1/4" pipe that traverses a cold garage today with 2" fiberglass. Wow, that stuff is huge. I'm hoping to be getting more heat in our sunroom.

As for the Big Mouths; I love them, but now I know they were overkill for me and I should have gone with the adjustable one. Then maybe I wouldn't need holes in my ceiling However, I do like that they can be rebuilt.

Fred

Those BigMouths are worth knocking a couple holes in a basement ceiling!

curiousburke_2

The adjustable made by Barnes looks very nice too, bu maybe not quite the same as this brass beauty

Sailah

The vari vent is every bit at well built as the Big Mouth and probably more so. It's the same stainless unit we build for the military sterilizers used in the forward deployment hospitals on battlefields.

curiousburke_2

Sorry, no offense at all intended. I have a thing for brass, turned my wife's engagement ring out of a solid block of it 21 years ago

I'll probably buy a vari vent for that third branch. Actually, I sent my wife the Amazon link as a gift suggestion.

Fred

By now her whole hand is probably green!

curiousburke_2

Well, there was some of that, but mostly it wasn't a problem. I guess it probably depends on what you apply to your hands and maybe hand chemistry. It also seemed to wear away over time, so I had to make a new, and thicker one.

Back to steam! The sludge is back after only one clear day, and of course so is the 0.5 psi. I'm wondering if I applied too much sealant to the threads (I used blue monster pipe dope), and if that could cause this much dirty water.

curiousburke_2

I have a dedicated skim port that is below the interior roof of the boiler. I could fit a hose thread to the safety valve union, which would raise the skim exit above the roof of the boiler. Does anybody have an opinion on which method is more effective?

Sailah

curiousburke said:

Sorry, no offense at all intended. I have a thing for brass, turned my wife's engagement ring out of a solid block of it 21 years ago

I'll probably buy a vari vent for that third branch. Actually, I sent my wife the Amazon link as a gift suggestion.

None taken

Koan

@curiousburke .

I have a 36 Oz gauge as well but with no steam was stuck at 4 Oz.
Disassembled, cleaned and adjust the zero to zero. Mine had a very small adjustment screw inside the case. Both pigtails (to gauge and vaporstat were pretty clogged up so replace them both and all the plumbing up to them. For me the give away was that the gauge was removed and still reading 4 Oz! You may be getting some crud lodged in the pigtail to the gauge?

curiousburke_2

That might be happening, but I can also see floating foamy sludge in the glass and suspended particles.

ChrisJ

The larger skim port will work better.
Don't forget to rinse out your gauge glass each time as well by opening the drain on the bottom and shutting the bottom valve and then raising the water level enough to get water running down from the top.

I always did this when skimming. You can also close the bottom valve and open the drain while it's steaming and steam clean the gauge glass. Remember the water and, at times steam will be extremely hot if you use this method.

I'd still rinse it while skimming, or after skimming though just to get every bit of oil out I could.

curiousburke_2

They are both 3/4" skim ports; in fact, they are the same port. I put a tee right off the relief valve tapping. One side goes to the skim port and the other goes up to the relief valve. I figured this would allow me to skim without filling the steam chamber to the top, so it has a free surface for oils to ride on.

curiousburke_2

This boiler does have a dedicated skim port tapping, but it's in line vertically with the return tapping, so in this compact installation it is inaccessible.

Fred

It always takes multiple skims to get all the oils out of the boiler. With only a 3/4" skim port, the key to success is very, very slow. I have the same situation and when I have a need to skim, I typically adjust the flow to a trickle, attach a garden hose to the skim port, after adjusting the flow and run it over to a floor drain. I have let it trickle over night. Just be sure you have powered the boiler down during the skim.

curiousburke_2

That is the procedure I used, but not overnight. About six hours during the day. I just did an hour today, and the water is clear. I think something is adding stuff through multiple cycles. Could it be coming from the pipe dope?

Fred

It will come from pipe dope, oils in the boiler and new piping during manufacturing, cutting oils when threading pipe, etc. Burnhams seem to be very sensitive to even small amounts of oil. At least mine is but once you get them out it's all good. The 3/4" skim tapping does you no favors either but it is what it is. Just keep doing it until it's clean. After the first couple skims, I would just do it once a week until its clean. Just because the pressure hits 8 ounces, that does not have to be the trigger. 8 Ounces of pressure isn't hurting anything and doing it once a week allows more of the oils, in the piping, to return to the boiler for your next skim.

curiousburke_2

I'm curious what is actually happening inside the boiler to build pressure locally without building pressure in the system. My guess is that it is foaming up into the header and that foam is what makes the pressure rise. There certainly is no pressure at the mains vents.

curiousburke_2

ChrisJ: BTW, I used the first technique you described for cleaning the glass today, but it didn't work for me. Just a tiny bit of water trickled down, and I filled a lot, so I was getting nervous about the water level. I opened the bottom and the water shot up to the top, brown with suspended matter. I'm guessing the bottom has tons of particles that just aren't getting picked up with the low flow draining. I should build a wand, and get a full 3/4" hose as mine is 5/8".

Fred

By the time your gauge reaches .5 PSI, the system is probably pressurized to that level. Your vents have to be closed so you can't tell what's going on in the pipes/radiators. If I recall correctly, you added a two stage gas valve to your boiler. Did you also add Vaporstats to control when the high flame drops out and the lower flame kicks in? Do you have the Vaporstats set correctly? Do you actually see the gas valve kick to low flame? Are you setting the Tstat way up when this happens? Again, if my memory serves me right, you added the gas valve because the boiler was grossly over-sized. It is still possible, depending on its size that even at low flame, the boiler is still over-sized. In any case, 8 ounces of pressure is not, in and of itself alarming.

curiousburke_2

You must be confusing me/my boiler with somebody else. I have a Plain Jane Peerless 63-04L boiler with a pressuretrol and single stage flame, and hopefully properly sized for my house. I would love it if it were two stage

Also, my main vents are fully open when the pressure starts, I stick my finger right in there and can feel the mechanism is loose and cold.

ChrisJ

curiousburke said:

ChrisJ: BTW, I used the first technique you described for cleaning the glass today, but it didn't work for me. Just a tiny bit of water trickled down, and I filled a lot, so I was getting nervous about the water level. I opened the bottom and the water shot up to the top, brown with suspended matter. I'm guessing the bottom has tons of particles that just aren't getting picked up with the low flow draining. I should build a wand, and get a full 3/4" hose as mine is 5/8".

You can also open the drain and leave the bottom valve open, it'll rinse it out as well. Open and close it a few times with the drain open. You'll be surprised what comes out. You may need to completely remove the cheesy plug the drain has in it as it may be too restrictive with the nasty slugs of crud and sludge that come out.

curiousburke_2

ChrisJ said:

You may need to completely remove the cheesy plug the drain has in it as it may be too restrictive with the nasty slugs of crud and sludge that come out.

Now I'm confused, what plug? When you say the drain, you mean the boiler drain, right? My drain is another 3/4" tapping. I removed the supplied boiler drain and replaced it with a full port ball valve and hose adapter. When I blow it down, it put out a split second of dark water, then it's clean ... if it's been off for awhile.

I want to try the steam cleaning, but I'm not completely sure I get it. How will closing the bottom cause steam to infiltrate the glass? I can't have to drian below the sight glass?

ChrisJ

curiousburke said:

ChrisJ said:

You may need to completely remove the cheesy plug the drain has in it as it may be too restrictive with the nasty slugs of crud and sludge that come out.

Now I'm confused, what plug? When you say the drain, you mean the boiler drain, right? My drain is another 3/4" tapping. I removed the supplied boiler drain and replaced it with a full port ball valve and hose adapter. When I blow it down, it put out a split second of dark water, then it's clean ... if it's been off for awhile.

No,
The drain on the bottom of the gauge glass. There's by OEM a small brass plug you loosen and it drains the gauge glass. I think it takes a 7 1/6" wrench? Could be wrong on the size.

I removed the entire drain and installed a 1/4" ball valve on mine.


Here's an older picture before I swapped out my skim valve for a brass coupler and brass plug.

ChrisJ

Here's what the OEM drain on the gauge glass looks like. This is from when I removed mine, and used it as a way to open my 3 PSI gauge to atmosphere to re-zero it. You see a drain like this on the bottom of your gauge glass.

curiousburke_2

Oh yeah!! I do have a drain at the bottom. I'll have to put a ball valve on it too. Unfortunately, I think I'm going to need to remove the glass to really clean it. I have some black spots stuck to the sides. Thank you for the info! It's amazing how many holes there can be in ones knowledge.

Right now my water is crystal and it's running with no pressure, which seems odd to me, as I'm pretty sure in two days it will be sludge. It almost seems like some event happens that introduces the sludge.

Fred

curiousburke said:

Oh yeah!! I do have a drain at the bottom. I'll have to put a ball valve on it too. Unfortunately, I think I'm going to need to remove the glass to really clean it. I have some black spots stuck to the sides. Thank you for the info! It's amazing how many holes there can be in ones knowledge.

Right now my water is crystal and it's running with no pressure, which seems odd to me, as I'm pretty sure in two days it will be sludge. It almost seems like some event happens that introduces the sludge.

That event is any remaining oil from any new piping washing back into the boiler.

curiousburke_2

I'm not disagreeing, but my thought was that oils washing into the boiler would be a continuous slow process, so the water would begin getting dirty with the first post-skim cycle. My system has done two or three cycles since the skim/drain this afternoon and still looks great (as it did Saturday).

BTW, the steamaster tablets are back in stock on Amazon

Fred

I would think it does slowly wash back into the boiler. The question is how much is necessary before you see any symptoms. I don't know. Also, because it is floating on the top of the water, it may take a while before you actually see enough in the sight glass to know it's there. I would think a lot of it is sitting in the wet returns too as with each skim you have less and less to deal with. I would also think the distance out in the system affects how quickly it gets back to the boiler.

Yes, @Sailah from Barnes and Jones was kind enough to put a few cases of the Steamaster tablets into Amazon inventory.

curiousburke_2

I can see it being delayed getting to the glass; however, I would think I would still see the effect on the pressure gauge as more oil accumulates, but I don't. I like solving riddles, but if I'm lucky this one wont last long enough for me to fully understand it

One thought I had is that I noticed a small length of back sloped main right before the main vent. I was wondering if I'm getting an occasional bang that I have not noticed, and if that is dislodging stuff. Maybe the force of impact is increased by the much, MUCH better venting with the Big Mouth than the old Hof #75.

I picked up a bottle of tablets. However, several hours before I noticed the tablets, and too late to cancel, I bought a bottle of
Rectorseal 68712 Quart 8-Way Boiler Water Treatment, thinking maybe its the same thing in liquid form; is it?