Heating comfort for old bones. Which way to go Steam/hot water

vibert_c

Dan’s books “Steamy Package” didn’t touch on this concept to my
recollection, so I am seeking feedback from steamers on just what its like
to reside in a steam heated dwelling when the outdoor design temperature
is -25̊F with a Degree Day accumulation of 4779 over the 2015 year

Over the years I have collected sufficient pieces to build a great cast iron
hot water heating system [oil fired] from the electric power breaker to the
oil tank, and everything in between. Then I read Dan’s books two years
ago and now wonder “should I go the extra mile” to configure my emitters
for steam service. They are suitable for steam [Warden King 1908]

I am aware that my chosen emitters sized for hot water will be over
radiated by the reciprocal of 62% should I use steam. [Ed Strock].

My heat loss I have measured at 288 kWh or 9.84 Therms per day [41K
Btu/h] on a design day. My dwelling is well enough insulated/sheltered that
I can handle one cycle per hour of a steam system.
I have living proof that hot dusty air provided by an electric furnace is not
what I consider comfortable especially when current power rates are
bounding for the moon every six months, presently at Cdn$0.18 / kWh.

Steamers, may I please have the benefit of your experiences.
vibert_c

JUGHNE

I live with hot water baseboard and radiant floors. But work around steam heat somewhat. However I do have fairly old bones.

The warmth that you absorb from a cast iron steam radiator is amazing, it is like putting on clothes just out of the dryer on a cold winter day. You feel like your jeans are being ironed with you in them. Steam is the best feeling of comfort with, IMO, hot water cast iron, if running hot enough would be next.
HW baseboard warms the room but there is no place to get really warm. Radiant floor is very good on the feet.

A cast iron radiator is the closest thing to sitting near a wood burning stove but without the smoke and ashes.

I almost feel guilty for all the heat pumps I have sold and installed for people.

New England SteamWorks

I think cast iron radiators are the best as well. Less important is if they are steam or hot water.

Hot water would be a much easier install over all the piping required to put steam in (unless it's a small job, -how many radiators/floors?).

But once in, steam involves less maintenance and fewer parts to fail.

So I guess you can have your ease up front, or over the long haul.

vibert_c

Thank you @jughne I appreciate your description. Do you or anyone know where I might see infrared pictures of a steam emitter over time, ie one cycle?
@RI_SteamWorks bungalow one story 24 * 48 with full basement. I don't mind the complexity of the piping, I am seeking comfort for my old bones!

Jamie Hall

And some of us have beautifully tuned steam systems with big cast iron radiators which are almost as even and almost as efficient as the best hot water systems -- with no pumps.

That said, however, @Hatterasguy (who really has a problem with steam) has a real point regarding pipes. It is much easier, if you do not have existing piping, to run the piping needed for a hot water system than it is to do it for a steam system. The pipes are smaller, and in most cases certain flavours of PEX can be used, which is flexible.

Jamie Hall

To @vibert_c -- the OP -- please note: in your situation, I would suggest that you may probably be happiest with a really well designed, well installed, hot water system, but it will need to be done right, by someone who really knows their stuff.

Not everyone does...

You have quite accidentally stumbled into a chronic debate around here!

You did ask, though, for " feedback from steamers on just what its like to reside in a steam heated dwelling when the outdoor design temperature is -25̊F with a Degree Day accumulation of 4779 over the 2015 year". And the specific answer to that question is, as I think most would agree, that it is very comfortable. Keep in mind, though, that comfort is very subjective.

BobC

I live south of Boston about a block off the ocean and I can tell you when the wind howls in from the ocean there is nothing like a good steam system. That said if you don't have the piping in place for steam it is not cheap to install.

If you really want steam maybe you should think about a steam mini tube system, that cuts the piping way down. Have someone come in and go over what you have and let him tell you whats entailed and make sure they are well versed in steam as well as hot water systems..

Bob

Jamie Hall

Hatterasguy said:

Jamie Hall said:

You did ask, though, for " feedback from steamers on just what its like to reside in a steam heated dwelling when the outdoor design temperature is -25̊F with a Degree Day accumulation of 4779 over the 2015 year". And the specific answer to that question is, as I think most would agree, that it is very comfortable. Keep in mind, though, that comfort is very subjective.

The implication is that a HW heated dwelling cannot match the comfort of a steam heated dwelling at -25F when nothing could be further from the truth.

If that was what was read, my apologies; I certainly did not mean that. Relax.

New England SteamWorks

Hell @vibert_c , look at it this way: It's not a big place, and one floor. Look at the fun you'll have piping it in steam, and here you'll have a stadium of folks cheering you on and excited about every step you take. No end to companionship. And, it would certainly be unique.

If you pipe it in hot water, you'll just be a face in the crowd...

SWEI

vibert_c said:

outdoor design temperature is -25̊F with a Degree Day accumulation of 4779 over the 2015 year

Were those 4,779 degree days at a 65°F base temp? Crest factor seems a bit high to me.

vibert_c

Hey chaps, here is more scoop on my situation.
I have been a student of hot water heating since the
purchase of my first book in 1951. [Ed Strock which I
referred to earlier]
Since then I have been the pipe threader and chief grunt on
two excellent installs for my older buddies. The second
installation in the 1960s was for a street railway inspector
that stood around at tram junctions to dispatch trams
according to need. During snow clearing the tracks would
be blocked for a few hours. At -25 F and not working hard
to keep your blood flowing he would be so cold when he
got home, he would jack the thermostat up to 85̊F and not
get warmed up until 9 pm. after a hot tub. He had old
bones. ie blood circulation to legs and feet was restricted.

Upon studying Dan’s books on steam, I came to realize that
“Hot damm” this type of system could have warmed him up
within half an hour without raising the thermostat.

Now I myself have reached this “old bones” stage. I am still
able to cut thread or weld pipe as long as its not outdoors in
winter time around here.

There are absolutely no pros around here that have any
knowledge of residential steam, so I must tackle this
concept on my own. My chum is a stationery engineer. His
steam boilers have all been removed from the local hospital
in favour of hot water heaters. “More is the pitty” his says.

There are no heating pipes in my residence at present. My
heating is with a York air to air heat pump with electric
backup. It has worked a treat since I moved here in 1985.
Last heating season my heating dollars exceeded $2600.- It
is surely time for a change. I am hoping to ease my
pocketbook and gain comfort all in one deed.

My eight upright emitters total EDR 275. My WM cast
iron radiant convectors have come from three homes in west
Montreal that changed over to radiant floor when the homes
were sold. They were still working perfectly according to
the contractor that originally installed them. He provided
me the installation tool and three bags of push nipples.

The Degree Day figure of 4779 is from our airport wx
office 7 miles west of me based on 65̊F [actually 18̊C
converted to F ̊ *9/5 as we have gone metric]

I have been learning more about Gerry Gills mini tube
system. I have several 1/4" copper tubes 8' in length that
are seamed to 6" wide copper plate, painted flat black that I
have salvaged from hi tech solar hot water heaters [Norsun
Inc.] that had ruptured when left stagnant in normal
sunlight. I have parted them out of the panel with intention
to string them in the floor joists under the bathroom Why
warm a towel rack when you can warm the whole darn floor
and room.

As a radio amateur I have been trained not to talk to ghosts.
A ghost is a soul that hides behind a moniker. We had a
real bout of this nonsense during the CB craze. I am
considering classifying @hatterusguy as a ghost.

The Steam Whisperer

I am glad someone already brought up steam mini-tube. I have laid out a modified version of this system for my own home and hope to have it installed in another year or so ( I currently have a converted gravity hot water system) The design eliminates the need for a condensate pump ( I hate adding the generally unnecessary complexity and power use of pumps to such an efficient system) and will allow the system to operate in vacuum to further increase efficiency with no pumps. I have built and installed a number of advanced hot water heating systems (see pics) but over time, have comes to 1) Understand how to make steam work , 2) how much simplier and reliable steam can be while providing the same comfort level and benefits of hot water heat. All the pumps and gages and zone valves and air separators and mixing valves and led control panels look cool, but with steam, they aren't needed.
There is beauty in the simplicity and the very efficient use of the inherently powerful and efficient transfer of heat through vaporization of water and then recondensing. When looking at the relationship of the heating system and the building, it appears that in many cases the high temperature delivery system like steam can actually reduce a buildings heat loss over a low temperature system and provide exceptional comfort.
The engineers that designed these old system seemed to have understood these relationships of how systems interact with buildings much better than engineers do today. It seems everyone is looking at AFUE ratings or combustion efficiency, or heating plant heat transfer efficiency, but seem to ignore parasitic needs for electricity and most especially ignore the interaction between the system, the building and the people. The true measure of a systems performance is the comfort of the people and how much energy it actually uses to operate, not some laboratory number. And this comes from someone that has spent a


lot of time in laboratories.

BobC

If you really want to feel the heat steam is the thing. A couple of years ago we lost power at the height of a howling blizzard when the HV feed crossing over the Fore river parted. Power went out at 10PM and was down till 8PM the next night. As I mentioned earlier this is a 98 year old house, I keep the doors closed in the winter to keep the snow out but the wind is a different story.

By the time power came back the inside was down to 46 and the old cat was not happy. As soon a the power returned the boiler kicked on and after a while the radiators started to blow (in the IR spectrum) - the heat was just pouring out of them. I suspect I was getting a lot more than 240BTU's per sq ft out of them at 46 than i do at 67.

Since that time I have insulated the walls and I installed a heat pump mini split so I wouldn't have to move my old 14,000 BTU window AC every spring and fall. That combination saved me 47.5% on my energy bill (combined electric and gas totals) for the month of October. My house gets very little sun at this time of year because of a line of trees to my south. This October in Boston had about 7% more degree days than last year did.

Make sure you keep that heat pump as aux heat during the shoulder seasons when you don't need the brute force of a steam system. If you don't have a copy buy "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" that is available from this site or from Amazon. that has all the information you need. You also have to do a heat loss for each room in the house so you know how big an emitter each room needs.

Bob

Robert_25

I think getting some radiant heat is more important than exactly how you get it. Standing in front of a cast iron radiator will always feel better than standing in front of a piece of fin-tube. A well controlled hot water system with cast iron radiators offers excellent comfort and economy. Steam heat is fantastic in cold weather, but I think hot water systems are easier to tame in mild weather. If you plan to keep the heat pump system for the fall/spring, that eliminates one of the most common "cons" of steam.

BobC, I had a 24k btu mini-split installed this fall. So far I am very impressed with how well it heats the house at this time of year.

Erin Holohan Haskell

Let's not let this thread devolve into personal attacks, guys.

SWEI

Human comfort is (almost) all about the MRT. How is the house constructed and what kind of finish is on the floors, walls, etc?

We typically see those kind of design temps associated with far more degree days. Silver City is 10°F with 3,705 degree days; Reno is also 10°F but 6,332 degree days; Duluth is -10°F and 10,000 degree days. I'm trying to imagine -25°F with only 4,779 degree-days and I have to say it's got me stumped.

vibert_c

Good eye @swei When I reviewed my spreadsheet I provided you with the celsius HDD I failed to convert it [*9/5] . The sheet is attached. Thanks for the cue.
vibert_c

ChrisJ

I like steam, everyone knows that.

However, when it comes to comfort with cast iron I don't think it matters what you use to heat the iron. Hot water, steam etc.

With a fresh install you're going to be able to do an outdoor reset system with hot water that will ultimately be a little more comfortable and more consistent. You'll also have more options for boilers as well.

With steam, you won't have to deal with bleeding the system or with pumps or bladder tanks. You also don't have a risk of a huge flood if something breaks. There's also a far lower risk of freezing in the winter if something goes wrong.


Both will likely be comfortable if done correctly. Hot water having an edge, especially with an outdoor reset.

I'd do steam because that's what I like but you can't go wrong either way in my opinion.

Limamikemike

Where in Canada are you located? Ontario?

You may reconsider using oil to heat if you don't like your electricity bills, I'd surmise that the cost to run will be somewhat similar.

Can you pipe in NG?

Also either way you chose do steam or hot water you may be required in your jurisdiction to have the system professionally stamped by a designer to meet code. (You can design it- but it must be approved ie showing heat loss calc and equipment to be installed etc)