new tank/line - loses prime

carnish

Burner was fine for many years, the new Roth tank install included a single overhead line. The previous setup was a single line along the floor. It now loses prime in a day, what's a reasonable list of things to check. There are no breaks between the check valve and the fusible valve, shouldn't the check valve keep the line full? Would a tigerloop fix the problem?

thanks for your help.

c

Scott M_2

Make sure the supply pipe into the tank is hard pipe not the rubber crap Roth gives you. AS a general rule anytime the oil line runs overhead I use a tiger loop.recheck your flares.

carnish

thanks scott. There is a compression fitting at the cap of the roth, but it seems that this is what ships with the roth? the rest of the line are flares.

if there is a air leak that can't be found does a tiger loop create a "buffer" that allows the air to dissipate? ( I only know what I've read so far on the forum)

thanks again for your help and the forum.

carnish

does a tiger loop require any maintenance after installation?

billtwocase

Run a vacuum test, and pinpoint your problem. You may have a weak pump that due to age, will not lift the fuel. A tigerloop is also a band-aid if you have a leak. Tigerloops are supposed to be replaced after 8 years? They do have an expiration date, just not positive the #. Personally after going on 34 years in the oil biz, I have never used one, or needed to add one. Just one more potential insurance claim or clean up JMHO.

STEVEusaPA

Follow @billtwocase advice for checking for leaks. If there are no leaks, then have your guy or you, power purge the fuel line. I won't tell you how to bypass the primary safety control.
Get a clear tube to hook up to the bleed port and into your can so the end of the tube will be immersed in oil as your bleeding.
Start furnace, open bleeder. Go back to the tank, close the valve. Let it run until the clear tube goes dry (pulling a lot of vacuum). Open valve at tank and bleed until there is no air in the tube, close bleeder.
Depending on the primary control, the ignitor may have dropped out. So if the burner doesn't fire immediately after you close the bleeder, hit the reset. Then return the control to it's proper wiring.
To answer some of your other questions:
-The Tiger loop needs no maintenance, but you will have to check, and eventually replace the flex lines. And the Tiger loop doesn't last forever.
-The compression fitting on the Roth tank is there to allow the fuel line to slip thru and hold it in the tank. It doesn't effect air or leaks.
If you're in MA, no check valves allowed.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Stay away from Tiger loops. When the line is tight with no leaks the burner will run. Period.

STEVEusaPA, Why no checks in MA. Never herd that one before??

billtwocase

Ed, Steve may mean that no check valve instead of a positive shout off. If this was a 2 pipe, never a valve of any kind in a return . There should be a ball or gate valve as it leaves the tank, and a thermal valve after it. I prefer to mount the filter on the burner in this scenario, and run the line to the floor as soon as possible. I hate overhead lines. They carry pump noise up through the house. Nothing like a high pitched whine to go with that cheese

billtwocase

Also, pics will help us

EBEBRATT-Ed

@billtwocase , I agree about the overhead lines. I'm old school no tiger, gravity one pipe, lift two pipe. I even like two pipe all the time I think it keeps things cleaner, constant circulation keeps things moving and less sediment build up.

I don't see a problem with a check in the return if the tank is above the pump or a check on the suction if the tank is below the pump. however both lines run to the bottom of the tank keeping the system sealed I best

Robert O'Brien

Barring a suction leak, Steve is correct. Air bubbles coalesce in the horizontal portion. Power purging is the solution.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Less problems getting rid of air with two pipe. One pipe flow is only nozzle capacity. Two pipe flow is pump gear capacity so nozzle flow might be.85gph versus pump gear capacity of 3 gph.

one pipe lets sludge settle and collect. Two pipe gets rid of air and ckkeps tank cleaner

SuperTech

Install a Tiger Loop. Your oil pump will last longer. Overhead lines are no good.

And a Tiger Loop requires no maintenance, unless you install the Tiger Loop Ultra that has a built in spin on oil filter that will make for a much happier oil burner.

EdTheHeaterMan

We have a lot of outside above ground fuel tanks where I work and the tiger loop is the best thing since sliced bread. That little reservoir of oil in the heated room near the burner warms up the oil, removes minor air problems and allows you to install a small fuel filter. I can't tell you how many small oil filters rated at 10 GPH I have found on 2 pipe systems. The fuel pump pulls over 20 gallons per hour from the tank thru the filter. The firing rate of .75 GPH (or 1.25 GPH or what ever the firing rate is) of the burner is pressurized into the combustion chamber. The rest of the oil returns back to the tank. The important part of this equation is the oil filter is filtering over 20 Gallons per hour when the pump is operating. It wont be a problem in tour new tank bur when the tank gets to be 20 years old then the tank bottom deposits may clog a small filter on a 2 pipe system before the year is over.

If your tank is inside you can install a 2 pipe system but remember to use a larger filter, rated for the pump gear capacity; not the burner firing rate.

Better yet... the tiger loop

Finally, your problem is most likely a poor flare on the copper tubing somewhere higher than fuel level in the tank. that is where the air is getting in. Especially if it is happening within 24 hours of priming the burner.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@EdTheHeaterMan Ther is no residential oil burner pump that is moving 20gph. You say the Tiger Loop will remove "minor air problems" If the thing is piped right and you have no air leaks you will have no air problems. TWO Pipe just like they did it in the old days. I am sick of hearing about "what if the return line leaks" rediculous

billtwocase

Why would one need to filter 20 gallons of fuel per hour, when they are actually consuming less than 1 in most cases? Above ground, underground, inside, outside, fix the air leak, or suction issue, and be on your way. These are a band-aid in my eyes, and have found far too many leaking to consider using. They may not require maintenance, but do require replacement. I also don't get where one would make a fuel pump last longer? I have 30, 40, 50, 60 year old pumps out there without a Tigerloop, and still performing as it should

EBEBRATT-Ed

@EdTheHeaterMan I apologize about the pump GPH capacity. it is in the neighborhood of 25-30 gph for a small residential pump
you are correct

EdTheHeaterMan

EBEBRATT-Ed does not like imperfection! at any cost all of the customers MUST repair fuel lines no matter where they go or how expensive they are to repair or replace.

What about the outside above ground oil tank that I experience daily. If I lift the oil to a second floor or horizontal ceiling mount burner (like in a Gas Station) and the oil is say 11 degrees from being stored outside, can I use a Tiger Loop to keep the oil warm or should we just install oil line heaters on all burners with outside tanks where the temperature can get below freezing?

3/8" fuel line on a single pipe from the tank can be very forgiving when you move only .75 GPH thru the old copper pipes. When you start using 2 pipe and moving 25 to 30 GPH thru the filter and the old pipes, you experience more problems. Not every oil burner is connected to new tanks with new fuel lines. some of this stuff is very old and we need to have all kinds of tools in our toolbox when problems arise. Take Carnish for example! someone may not know how to make a proper flare. now he has no heat tonight. Maybe a tiger loop can insure he has heat. This may not be a perfect world. But don't throw away a perfectly good tool if you don't understand what it is good for!

Take some time to learn more about the tigerloop. It is not just for minor air problems.

PS
I include an oil filter, oil safety valve and tigerloop on every new oil burner (furnace or boiler) I install. (I may eliminate the OSV if the entire tank is below the burner)

EdTheHeaterMan

"Why would one need to filter 20 gallons of fuel per hour, when they are actually consuming less than 1 in most cases? Above ground, underground, inside, outside, fix the air leak, or suction issue, and be on your way. These are a band-aid in my eyes, and have found far too many leaking to consider using. They may not require maintenance, but do require replacement. I also don't get where one would make a fuel pump last longer? I have 30, 40, 50, 60 year old pumps out there without a Tigerloop, and still performing as it should"

to billtwocase and others
I hope this illustration works .

1. This illustration shows that a fuel unit with a gear set capacity of 25 GPH is used to build up sufficient hydraulic pressure to oppose the pressure of the nozzle port pressure adjustment spring. Once that pressure is achieved the fuel flows to the nozzle at the adjusted pressure (lets use 100 PSI factory setting)
2. The nozzle (lets say 1GPH for my 2 story Colonial with Indirect DHW) allows fuel to flow into the chamber to burn.
3. Where does the other 24 gallons go? In this illustration the remaining fuel returns to the tank.
4. So How many gallons are filter every hour the fuel unit runs?

I hope you are all well versed in the highly technical field of 2nd grade Mathematics

1 gallon oil to burn + 24 gallons to tank = 25 gallons from tank thru filter.

Have you ever opened the priming port of a Sundstrand Mini-pump and noticed how fast the empty plastic milk jug fills up with fuel? Try it some time. It may amaze you to see that only a few minutes of operation will produce so much oil.

Now when you close the priming port the pump gears are not magically going to move less fuel. the same fuel just goes somewhere else. On a two pipe system the oil goes back to the tank

billtwocase said:

Why would one need to filter 20 gallons of fuel per hour, when they are actually consuming less than 1 in most cases? Above ground, underground, inside, outside, fix the air leak, or suction issue, and be on your way. These are a band-aid in my eyes, and have found far too many leaking to consider using. They may not require maintenance, but do require replacement. I also don't get where one would make a fuel pump last longer? I have 30, 40, 50, 60 year old pumps out there without a Tigerloop, and still performing as it should

EdTheHeaterMan

Scott M said:

Make sure the supply pipe into the tank is hard pipe not the rubber crap Roth gives you. AS a general rule anytime the oil line runs overhead I use a tiger loop.recheck your flares.

To answer your question. Yes the tigerloop will solve your problem. Also finding and repairing the air leak will also solve your problem

billtwocase

In all due respect Ed, I threw the 20 GPH back out there, but for the most part with residential units, you are dealing with only a 3 GPH fuel pump. The Tigerloop debate has been around for many years, and will probably still be going on long after we are 6 feet under. Not my cup of tea, sorry. I see these things thrown on to every install by many with the false sense of security that "this will cover my **** with any potential supply issues." The poster does not have an extreme case here. It is not a 60 foot lift with a 30 foot run. With a 2 pipe system, you are creating a high vacuum, and filtering the fuel unnecessarily. Both does not result in much good. A tigerloop will only receive and circulate what is being consumed, and the "magic" bowl does not store any real abundance of warm oil for the burning. Outside tanks we treat for cold weather. Tigerloops are no help on frozen or gelled tanks

EdTheHeaterMan

I Have to disagree with Billtwocase on the warmer oil (not heated oil)

Had one customer with a Carrier oil Fired furnace that used a 2 pipe system. The burner may have been Beckett AFII but not sure since I have not had to go there for several years since the Tiger Loop solved the problem. I suspect that the oil dealer that asked for my help is completing the maintenance every year. I Digress...


The problem was no heat 3 nights in a row when the 2 pipe system from an outside above ground tank delivered 14 degree fuel to the burner. During the day the the temperature was above 25 degrees and may have reached 30 degrees. One evening I arrived to see the fuel lines icing up like a refrigerant line low on refrigerant. This is that gear set in the pump moving more oil than needed thru the pump and returning it back to the tank. I am not going to guess as to the actual GPH thru the filter and return line. Lets just say it was more than 10 GPH. The firing rate was .65 GPH to the Combustion Chamber. Leaving something more than 9.35 GPH returning to the very cold tank. The fuel was treated and was moving thru the lines and the burner was operating. There was a higher than normal vacuum but nothing the fuel unit could not handle. The flame was just so far out of adjustment resulting from the extreme temperature the the flame signal on the cadmium cell was insufficient to keep the burner operating.

I told the customer that the Tiger Loop would solve the problem for the third time and he finally allowed me to install the deaerator. Now the fuel from the tank to the deaerator is moving at a very slow rate of .65 GPH. The 15 feet of fuel line from the wall to the deaerator was cold to the touch but was not 14 degrees. The fuel traveling thru the deareator and the fuel unit was at a temterature the burner could use. There was no frost building up on the fuel line. My vacuum gauge was proof that the deaerator solved the problem and the fuel unit was not as noisy as it was on the two pipe system.

Can you explain why the fuel temperature on the deaerator system was higher then the two pipe system fuel temperature? The tank was still out in the same cold night air. It may have even been a degree or two colder than when I arrived!

Another question (most get this wrong)

Will a nozzle deliver more or less fuel to the combustion chamber when the temperature drops substantially? (as it did in this case)

EBEBRATT-Ed

If I remember correctly the colder the oil the more oil goes through the nozzle. Even though the colder oil is more viscous (thicker) it does not spin in the nozzle and tends to go straight through.

billtwocase

I will agree on getting rid of the 2 pipe on an outside, above ground tank. If the supply is gelling, so will the return. Carrier furnace is a whole other set of problems not related to fuel supply

BornForDying

I believe Suntec (or maybe Webster) specifies no check valves in supply or return piping, especially when the oil line runs from outside, or from an unconditioned space into a conditioned one.

Cold oil trapped between the oil pump and a check valve will warm up, expand, and possibly blow the seal on the pump.

Edit: http://www.suntecpumps.com/CheckValves.htm