Having trouble heating up apartment furthest from boiler

NewbieInQueens

Hi everyone, I have done a bit of reading on the site and have a little grasp on what could be my problem.

Basically the apartment that is furthest from the boiler is significantly colder than the other apartments. This apartment is on the 3rd floor and the riser is connected to the end of a 50 foot MAIN. I figured out there were no main vents, so I'm getting those installed shortly. I am thinking QTY 2 of Gorton #2 vents.

I also noticed another interesting thing about this apartment, it is the only one in the building with recessed radiators. The rest of the apartments all have cast iron radiators. This building is new to me, so I don't know the why things were done or if they even made sense.

Based on these pictures, does anyone know if these should not be mixed with other cast iron radiators? Or if these convectors would be appropriate for this application. It is a 1 pipe steam system.

I appreciate any input, thanks all

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GW

I'd say get you main vents installed and report back.

larger mass rads and smaller mass convectors don't wok well together due to basic, well, mass issues. But nothing saying you can't do it, or the dude 80 years ago. It's just not ideal.

It's possible some other heat dude installed that apartment back in the day, or perhaps the owner lived in that unit, who knows. If it lacks EDR (rad size), that's another topic.

Your doors and windows good?

Gary

Jamie Hall

As @GW said -- the two don't work that well together, but that's not to say that it can't be made to work with some thought and fiddling. But the first thing, as he also said, is to get the main venting right, which will help.

Fred

What diameter is the 50ft. Main? Two Gorton #2's may not be enough. It may also make sense to put a vent at the top of the riser that feeds that apartment. Where is the thermostat relative to the Apartment? It is very possible the thermostat is simply being satisfied before that last apartment get a chance to get much steam. Maybe a Tstat with a couple remote sensors might help, not sure at this point.

BobC

One bigmouth costs half what a couple of Gorton #2's do.

Bob

Abracadabra

If all the radiators heat up at about the same time, you have two options.

1. Slow down the venting to the non recessed radiators to get steam faster to the recessed rads, or
   
2. Install a fan in each recessed cabinet to increase the effective output of those radiators. The fan can be controlled with a simple disc thermostat.
   

I've done #2 with extremely good results.

NewbieInQueens

Ok, so it took me a while to get someone to put on those main vents. They put on 2 Gorton #2s. It took 12 min from the boiler being totally cold to get to the end of this 50ft main.

The windows are ok and so is the door. The convectors get HOT all the way across, I mean I can't touch them for a second, but then the rooms do not heat up.

I'm new at all this, but I looked up a heat loss calculator and estimated I need around 8500 btu and I believe this convector puts out 5448 (it is a 36x24 cabinet).

Also I snapped a pic and this is what the underneath of the convector looks like.

I'm thinking to close up that wall and install a cast iron radiator that is not recessed. Does my thinking seem correct?
thanks again



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Fred

What size is that supply pipe? If it's 1" (inside diameter, about 1-1/4" outside diameter) it may may not support a larger radiator. If it is 1-1/4" inside diameter (about 1-1/2" outside) you should be good to replace that with a larger radiator, up to 55, maybe 60 EDR. Is this a small apartment? One room efficiency? Is this the only radiator in that apartment?

NewbieInQueens

So this is a 2 bedroom on the top (3rd floor). Both bedrooms are approx 13x10 and the living room is 20x11.

Yesterday I had the bottom of the convectors insulated since there were some drafts coming in. Now there is no longer a draft coming in through the bottom of the cabinets.

Outside temp yesterday, 40f

I have an ecobee 3, so I have a log of the temps. I shut off the boiler at 6am, at that point current temps were:
1R 79
2R 84
3R 78
3F 68

Then at 2pm the drafts from the convector were fixed, I fired up and from a cold boiler start the temps were:

1R 74
2R 76
3R 72
3F 63

Turned off at 5:30pm (total of 3:30 hours runtime)

1R 77
2R 87
3R 81
3F 71

The R apartments are directly above the boiler with a very short main that has no main vent. The F apartments are at the end of a long main, approx 40-50ft. I initially asked my plumber to put in 2 Gorton #2, and when I took a look he installed 2 Gorton #1 on my long mains. He said he made a mistake and waiting for him to fix.

So it took 3.5 hours for my problem apartment to go from 63 to 71, which I guess is not too bad. I then monitor how quickly the apartments loose the heat

5:30 5:43 6:00 6:30 7:00 7:30
1r 77 77 76 76 75 75
2r 87 87 86 84 83 82
3r 81 81 80 79 78 77
3f 71 70 70 69 68 67


Now I'm wondering how if I need to open the windows on the hotter apartments to let them reach the same temp as 3F, before firing off the boiler again. Or else the temp difference is too big between them.

NewbieInQueens

Fred said:

What size is that supply pipe? If it's 1" (inside diameter, about 1-1/4" outside diameter) it may may not support a larger radiator. If it is 1-1/4" inside diameter (about 1-1/5" outside) you should be good to replace that with a larger radiator, up to 55, maybe 60 EDR. Is this a small apartment? One room efficiency? Is this the only radiator in that apartment?

Not sure about pipe size yet, I will have my plumber take a look.

It is a 2 bedroom, it has 4 of these ARCO convectors,
kitchen
living room
bedrooms

The warmest place in the apartment is the bathroom, it has a bare pipe as the heating element, I calculated 2,200 BTU / 8.8 EDR

I will also mention the apartment right beneath this one complains it is too hot, as do all the other apartments that are like saunas. It is only this apartment that has this cold problem.

My guess is the building was originally setup with these ARCO converters in all the apartments and they have been replaced throughout the years. That is why i'm leaning toward changing one of the convectors for a radiator and see how that works out.

Abracadabra

Slow down the vents in the other radiators. #4 if necessary. The other rads are obviously stealing steam from this unit.

JUGHNE

What does the insulation factor consist of for the top floor ceiling? In addition of having less and mismatched radiation this may be a factor.

NewbieInQueens

Just wanted to follow up in case anyone finds this thread and my experience can help.

First I want to thank everyone for the suggestions and helping me to figure this out.

Eventually I figured out that my very long main was split into 3 shorter mains each with their dry return that dropped into a wet return that runs along the floor. They had some little hoffman 40 & 4a vents. I replaced them with one Gorton #2 at two different dry returns and added 2 more Gorton #2s at the end of the "Main" main if that makes sense.

At the same time, the 3 rear apartments (3 stories tall) that had a very short riser (with no main vent) and I removed all the VariValves on the radiators and put Gorton #4 on all of them, from top to bottom. I figured they are almost right on top of the boiler with very little main.

Now the apartment furthest from the boiler (front of building and top floor) has improved quite a bit. Where before it was taking 1 hour to increase the heat 1 degree from a cold start (and warmer outside), now in 1 hour it is increasing 3 degrees from a cold start in colder weather.

I'm thrilled to say the least to see this sort of improvement.


I do have 2 more questions. That super long main is not insulated, but my boiler is around 100sq ft oversized based on the radiator load. I've been reading a lot lately, about steam condensing in the main and how important it is to insulate, but in my case is it better to insulate or leave alone because of my oversize? It's maybe 50ft of bare main in an empty utility room basement space.

Also, I wound up installing 4 - Gorton #2, can I make things worse by attempting to vent the long mains even more?

Fred

You can vent that long main more if it needs it. Determine the length and diameter of that main and we can tell you how much venting is required. You may well want to buy the Barnes and Jones Bigmouth vents for that main. They are excellent vents, solid brass and each have double the capacity of a Gorton #2 and a little less than the cost of one Gorton #2.
As for that uninsulated main, even though your boiler is over-sized, you want the steam to be able to get to the areas where you want it to condense and produce heat and that doesn't sound like that basement storage area. I would insulate it.

Jamie Hall

Insulate that long main. It may make a slight difference in the cycling of the boiler, but it will make a big difference in how fast steam gets to the end of the main -- vent or no vent.