Oh, My.... Unique Vapor/Vacuum System

New England SteamWorks

Some days are just magical....

Look, @Fred 's radiators!

New England SteamWorks

And there's more. Much more:

Paul S_3

Niceee.... thats indirect warm air heating.....those ducts lead to outside?or just the cellar.....i service a few homes around me with them.....really old late 1800s

New England SteamWorks

Made in Detroit



With a touch of Boston

New England SteamWorks

Sleeping a long and peaceful foreclosure slumber. Waiting.




Is there a Megasteam in my future?

Fred

I have one of those Niagara Window Seat radiators on my system @RI_SteamWorks. They are amazing but mine actually has a window bench built over/around it. I'd rather it were exposed.

Paul48

I've never seen a radiator like that. I've looked at a bunch of the old catalogs, but that's gotta be rare.

New England SteamWorks

"Those ducts lead to outside? Yes @Paul S . There are tunnels under the basement connecting all eleven. I bet that was a cheap install...

New England SteamWorks

Paul48 said:

I've never seen a radiator like that. I've looked at a bunch of the old catalogs, but that's gotta be rare.

And Fred has one! How about a pic Fred?!

adambnyc

I'm impressed, no idea what I'm looking at totally, but looks like someone spent a lot of time setting that up.

Considering how bad I always see the near boiler piping being posted, It's nice that someone piped it correctly.

New England SteamWorks

adambnyc said:

I'm impressed, no idea what I'm looking at totally, but looks like someone spent a lot of time setting that up.

Considering how bad I always see the near boiler piping being posted, It's nice that someone piped it correctly.

Technically correct, but too small for the 3" mains.

Fred

@RI_SteamWorks Best I can do. As I said, It has a window bench built over/around it.

New England SteamWorks

Just goes to show you. @Fred really does have everything...

Fred

RI_SteamWorks said:

Just goes to show you. @Fred really does have everything...

Hardly! LOL

Paul48

That's like hanging a Rembrandt in a closet. @Fred .........she's screamin' ........Please, let me out!

Fred

Paul48 said:

That's like hanging a Rembrandt in a closet. @Fred .........she's screamin' ........Please, let me out!

@Paul48 You don't know how many times I've gathered my tools to set her free and then I'm reminded that that window bench AND that radiator have been mates for 114 years and each has its own history. Don't start me down that path again. LOL. I'm happy just knowing it's there.

Fred

@Paul48 and @RI_SteamWorks Here's the cut sheet on that radiator, if you are interested.

New England SteamWorks

Fred, you're the best. I was wondering how I was going to get the EDR for them to size the boiler.

Fred

RI_SteamWorks said:

Fred, you're the best. I was wondering how I was going to get the EDR for them to size the boiler.

Thanks, I thought you might could use that!

Paul48

Imagine what they would charge for a radiator built like that today.

New England SteamWorks

Ha! Imagine what they would charge for the underground fresh air intakes. Now THAT was a project...The underground tunnels are all done in brick, like the very old sewers. Completely round.

Paul48

How big was that place? where? Newport?

New England SteamWorks

Well Wallies, I have done my due deligence and I am coming up empty on this system. Any help greatly appreciated:

There are two of these perforated pipes with hand valves on each of the returns up very high:


The temperature control valves are labeled Detroit as seen above.

There are traps on the radiators, but no crossovers, and no F&T or bucket trap. There are two of these sealing loops on the returns, but they are very high. Hard to believe they were once below the water line:


I am assuming this is an air eliminator


The returns have a common pipe that vents into the flue. This pipe can be seen directly above the aquastat:


The supply main is piped in a continuous loop. Above the boiler it begins at the bullhead tee at 3" heading off in opposite directions, goes down to 2-1/2", then 2" in the middle where they join.

The system is currently not running and there is no history.

Thanks

Danny Scully

Can't get intouch with the installer?

New England SteamWorks

Danny Scully said:

Can't get in touch with the installer?

Boy, wouldn't that be fun!

New England SteamWorks

I am also scratching my head on sizing this boiler. The house is about 4700sf, but the EDR is 1673! 1320 of that is the indirects, which of course are way over-sized to heat with all that fresh cold air. The original owner was quite wealthy I am certain. But I don't think the new owner wants to face heating bills like that guy did! So closing the fresh air intakes is a logical first step. But how to size the boiler? I've read a reference from Dan where they tacked on 75% to cover the outside air. That would put me at mid 600 for the whole house. And if it doesn't heat?

Also, the poor guy can't really go about weatherizing the house and tightening up the envelope as doing so will cut the air flow from the indirects if air can't leave the home... So a big heat bill either way?

SWEI

Dampers on the indirect air inlets?

EBEBRATT-Ed

I don't suppose the perforated pipes could have been crude humidifiers used in the winter when the outdoor make up air to the indirect"s was dry?? What you say is an air elimenator looks like the old type of steam safety valve that did not have a blow off pipe. I can't remember the name?? Pop safety valve maybe??

gerry gill

You work in some cool **** places! im jealous

New England SteamWorks

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

I don't suppose the perforated pipes could have been crude humidifiers used in the winter when the outdoor make up air to the indirect"s was dry??

No, because they are connected to the flue, and there's only two of them on the two returns, and eleven indirects all around the basement. They are somehow using the flue draft to pull air/steam from the returns. And perhaps the valve at the end is used to regulate how much draft is pulled by adjusting how much basement air is pulled through the holes? A mixing valve if you will?

SWEI

My copy of TLAoSH is about 700 miles east of me at the moment, but I know there is at least one system mentioned there that exhausted air into the chimney.

New England SteamWorks

SWEI said:

My copy of TLAoSH is about 700 miles east of me at the moment, but I know there is at least one system mentioned there that exhausted air into the chimney.

Yeah, Broomell. But beyond that, no similarities...

Steamhead

That is definitely an old safety valve.

There were several systems that exhausted into the chimney so the flue draft could help pull air out. They all had either a condensing radiator or a very long pipe to keep steam from reaching the chimney. Maybe those perforated, oversized pipes were there to chill the steam enough so it would condense before reaching the chimney?

Those loop seals are common on Tudor systems, but you say this system has traps. Who made the traps? Are they obviously newer than the system?

Danny Scully

VECO systems utilized the same method, although this isn't a VECO system. Obviously you could do this, or big mouths now I suppose.

New England SteamWorks

Traps look to be original, Warren Webster:


Or maybe not? Looks like some pipe dope here:

New England SteamWorks

Steamhead said:

Maybe those perforated, oversized pipes were there to chill the steam enough so it would condense before reaching the chimney?

Well, they are way up high and tilted at a 45º, so that lends credence to a steam condenser. But then again, how is an over-sized perforated pipe sheathing a steam pipe more efficient at condensing steam than the pipe alone completely exposed to the atmosphere?

Then we have the large round valve handle at the end, which seems there for adjustment. Suppose the valve adjusted the mixture of air pulled into the flue? More basement air through the perforations would equal less vacuum on the returns. But additionally, air being pulled through the perforations would greatly aide in condensing steam. So maybe it does both: makes the amount of vacuum on the system adjustable, and cools the inner pipe and condenses the steam at the same time.

But if it is a condenser, then the traps would presumably not be original?

Also, the Niagara radiators, and a standard radiator in the hall, have both traps and vents. I cannot see inside the indirect enclosures to know if they have a vent as well. Update: They do not.

SWEI

Are those perforated pipes truly open, or is there another pipe inside?

Steamhead

Must.... resist..... getting.... plane..... ticket..... to........ Providence...... airport.............

Fred

Steamhead said:

Must.... resist..... getting.... plane..... ticket..... to........ Providence...... airport.............

Don't fight the feeling! I'm sure @RI_Steamworks would love another set of eyes on that system.

New England SteamWorks

SWEI said:

Are those perforated pipes truly open, or is there another pipe inside?

There is another pipe inside:

Danny Scully

You think it's double tapped @RI_SteamWorks?