Steam Boiler System or Water Boiler System?

KK2016

I hope this isn't an obvious question, or one that's been asked many times (I did check first)...How do I know whether my system is steam heat or water? The boiler (Bryant BS2AAN000187AAA) has information for both. My radiators are built into the wall, so i can't inspect them. I bought the house a few years ago - I thought I had a steam heat boiler system, but now I'm not sure. I was told by a company today that they only work on water boilers, but their guys had replaced my water heater a last winter and told me that they would be able to help me fix my boiler. (The entire system needs help.) Anyway, can someone clarify for me? Thank you in advance!

Jamie Hall

Not that hard to tell, these days -- although a few pictures of the boiler would help us out. However. What you need to do is take a look at the piping right around the boiler. If there are one or two large pipes which come out of the top or the sides, and they hook into other large pipes which go out to the radiators, and there are no pumps, it's steam. On the other hand, if you see one or more pumps, and relatively small pipes, it's hot water. The only real possible confusion is that there are some steam systems which use a single pump -- called a condensate or boiler feed pump -- to get water back into the boiler. Those aren't common. There are a number of other differences as to controls and such, but just the piping arrangement should tell you.

But as I say, take a few pictures of the boiler and the nearby piping, and we can tell you very quickly!

KK2016

Here are a few shots...

Steamhead

Steam.

KK2016

Thank you both!

RomanGK_26986764589

It doesn't look like it's piped right though....

nicholas bonham-carter

The next stage would be to download the installation manual for the boiler, and see how the piping should have been configured.
If you can see any of the feeds to the radiators in the basement, you could tell if it were 2-pipe, or 1-pipe steam.
Can you describe any symptoms of malfunctionality?--NBC

KK2016

Not even sure where to start on that question...I bought the house in the summer 4 years ago. When winter came there was crazy water hammer coming from different places in the pipes. I have some radiators that work for a day or 2 when the system is first turned on, then won't work for the rest of the winter. I have radiators that heat up only part-way across. The boiler itself had a broken pressuretrol that I had replaced, the pigtail was moved, and a pipe that had blockage in it was taken off and cleaned. I also had the old air vents replaced with new ones, and new vents added to most of the radiators. Still, in the 3 winters I've had the house, none of the work I've had done has improved the way the system heats the house or the water hammer. And now the boiler itself seems to be done for - it started making a "boom" noise every time it finished a cycle last year and then just stopped working in May (around the time I no longer needed heat). So now I am anticipating needing a lot of work on the whole system and struggling to get a good company to come to the house. (I'm in Mansfield, OH and none of the companies on this site are within 60 miles.) I have a local company coming on Monday and I'm trying to get at least 1 other company to come.

KC_Jones

@gerry gill do you travel that far?

https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/g-w-gill-plumbing-and-heating

Sailah

The owner should hope he is willing to...

BobC

It sounds like some of you pipes are sloped wrong. Steam carrying pipes must be sloped so water can drain back to the boiler so they have to run slightly downhill to the boiler. I would go over all the steam pipes to see what kind of slope they have. make sure you use a level don't trust your eyes.

The radiators that work early in the season and then stop are trapping water in the supply pipes somewhere. The condensate eventually fills up a pipe and the steam can't reach that radiator anymore.

Bob

KC_Jones

Another recommendation, whoever did the work on the current boiler probably shouldn't be allowed in the house again.

Fred

It's about 80 miles from Cleveland to Mansfield. It would be great if Gerry could get there but 80 miles may be a stretch???

Jamie Hall

Older house? They do settle. As @BobC said, your step one is to go over the whole house -- all the piping -- inch by inch (don't just check end to end) and make sure that all the pipes are sloped to drain. Since you have air vents on the radiators, it is most likely to be single pipe steam. Among other things, that means that the condensate is running in the same pipes as the steam is, and it has to be able to return to the boiler. There are two ways this can happen -- "parallel flow" where the steam mains slope away from the boiler and have a vertical drain at the far end, which goes to a "wet return" which returns to the boiler or "counter flow" where all the pipes slope back to the boiler. Either way, it is essential that the all the pipes slope correctly for their full length!

Particularly in parallel flow it is also essential that the pressure at the boiler be low enough to allow the water to come back -- 2 psi is ample, and 1.5 psi is better.

Don't worry about the radiators not heating all the way across. In general, they won't, except on the vary coldest days -- and even then they may not. That's normal.

The boom from the boiler may not indicate a new boiler; it may be a combustion problem. Only a good technician can evaluate that.

Except for the possibility of a new boiler, the rest of the work is fussy and detailed, but should not be a major headache -- if you can find someone who knows what he or she is doing and is willing to do it. If you can get @gerry gill to come, so much the better. It would be worth the cost.

As for books -- "We got Steam Heat" and "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" are, in my view, the best bets. They're all good.

vaporvac

It's also possible Christian Egli would make the trip as he goes to Columbus and Cincinnati. He was my saviour. This is only if Gerry can't make it as he's certainly closer. http://www.thebluebook.com/iProView/899385/c-g-egli-inc/subcontractors/

KK2016

I have definitely struggled with getting good people to work on the boiler, which I'm baffled by because there are lots of older homes here that use steam heat. Dan advises to get them to write a contract not just for the work, but for the results (comfortable temp and quiet system). I can't get anyone to write a contract at all - they act like that's not the way it works. I have a million stories about this, which I won't bore you with.

I do own "We Got Steam Heat". I bought the other one but it was kind of technical and - not kidding - I gave it to one of the guys who came to work on my boiler at one point. My house was built in 1934.

I appreciate all the thoughts and feedback everyone is providing. And I really hope Jamie is right that it's not a "major headache". It doesn't feel like that right now, but I'm more hopeful than I was yesterday before I started this thread...

DoRight

Steam boiler - high labor install first time->low maintenance and reliable operation afterwords. Not so flexible with radiator installation.
Water boiler - easier to install -high maintenance and parts needs to be replaced once in while. But easier divided to "zones"

DoRight

P.S. As many already sad, slope is crucial, and boom sound you have is definitely related to some portion of the pipe is not sloped correctly/got changed. Make it right can be challenging and labor extensive.

Jamie Hall

DoRight said:

P.S. As many already sad, slope is crucial, and boom sound you have is definitely related to some portion of the pipe is not sloped correctly/got changed. Make it right can be challenging and labor extensive.

It can be. But upwards of 90% of the time it isn't -- particularly in older houses. They settle and sag, and pipe hangers get tired...

JUGHNE

Is that a zone valve just above the boiler??
If so it seems overkill for control and could be the source of water hammer.

Jamie Hall

JUGHNE said:

Is that a zone valve just above the boiler??
If so it seems overkill for control and could be the source of water hammer.

Missed that. Yes indeed it could be a source, if not the source, of water hammer -- unless it is a full port ball valve which is never ever closed. Otherwise, it must be dripped on both sides... and if it's not full port it's also hurting efficiency.

KK2016

Here's a different/better shot. I think, based on the mention above of water boilers and zones, that this might be why one guy told my system probably started as steam heat, was converted to water, and then back to steam. I've also been told that it doesn't hurt to leave the valves in place since they aren't doing anything anymore. So they just sit there...

JUGHNE

There is a steam tap before that valve, pretty small.

KK2016, do you have only one thermostat?
Could you stand off to the right side of the boiler and take another picture?

You said you have some one coming to look at this, quiz them what the brass gizmo in the piping above the boiler is and see what they come up with, and why it needs to be there. There is a good chance you don't need it and that valve is causing some of your water hammer. Usually just one thermostat will turn on the burner and the steam is on its way, no need for the valve to open and close.

As for pipe sag, originally pipe hangers were a fair distance apart and adequate. I have found that after nearly a century of gravity applied that a pipe will develop a "belly" in it and that added to loose hangers and house settling could produce pockets of water waiting for the steam to hit it and hammer.

Jamie Hall

Those valves aren't doing you any favours. They may not actually be causing problems, but I wouldn't bet on it. The way they are placed, it is quite likely that condensate is getting trapped in them, and then propelled against that elbow going up. Whang... I would be very much inclined to take the trouble of taking them out of there. There's a union between them, so it shouldn't be that hard. While you are at it -- check the pitch on the pipe which they are located on. It may be the picture, but to my eye it looks as though it pitches to the right, towards that elbow going up, which will be another source of trouble. If it does, that will be a little hard to fix -- but needs to be.

KK2016

Here's a few other pictures...it's kind of a tight space and I'm not sure what you want to see JUGHNE, but hopefully I covered it.

There is only one thermostat.

Steamhead

RomanGK_26986764589 said:

It doesn't look like it's piped right though....

That's a rebranded Dunkirk which does not like improper piping, so we can't expect it to work properly until it's repiped.

To the OP: Where are you located?

JUGHNE

So is that 2 zone valves.....with one T-stat??

KK2016

Steamhead: I am in Mansfield OH (between Columbus and Cleveland)

Steamhead

Call Gerry Gill, who was mentioned earlier.

KK2016

I just wanted to provide an update, in case anyone was interested...On Monday, the local company I mentioned sent a guy to my house. He only looked at the boiler and, in less than 5 minutes, told me I needed a new boiler and that he couldn't guarantee it would fix all of my issues. I asked him about the piping/slope of the pipes...he then glanced up and said the piping was fine - the boiler was the problem. I showed him the door.

I then reached out to Gerry Gill and it just so happened that he was coming to Mansfield the very next day to do some work so he agreed to come to my house. He was here for hours doing a thorough review of the system. He got the boiler working again and determined that I have a 2-pipe air vent system that is incorrectly installed/piped (with lots of oddities to boot).

Thanks to everyone who provided information and nudged me to reach out to Gerry - I'm grateful that I finally have someone so knowledgeable helping me get the system into shape.

Fred

Great that Gerry was able to get there and identify/resolve the issues!

Sailah

Gerry is top notch, what great customer service.

STEAM DOCTOR

Good move showing that guy the door.
@DoRight. Most steam problems are not that difficult to fix.