Near Boiler Checklist

curiousburke_2

I'm sure this has already been discussed, or is in one of the books, but I haven't found it. Is there a checklist with all the specifications for near boiler piping somewhere, including everything, like Hartford loop height, size and position of clean out valves, minimum equalizer size, return size, header height, etc? I've seen mention of a checklist, but never the checklist itself. I know the near boiler plumbing is critical, so it seems like there should be a list of requirements.

Basically, I'm planning to have my plumber install a new boiler, and he has done steam before, but I would like to be able to give him all of my requirements, and also to make sure everything is done to the level suggested around here. Before I decided to go ith my plumber, I had a contractor examine my system (one that was listed here), and I asked him for those specifications in the contract, but they don't do it, not in a complete way with all dimensions, etc.

I realize that some dimensions will be boiler specific, but the list could at least note that it needs to be checked with and maybe exceed the manufacturers recommendation.

Many Thanks!

KC_Jones

I have never seen such a checklist, though some pros might have something they use for their own business. Some of the items you mention are in the installation manual of the boiler. Since every manufacturer is a little (or a lot) different anything dimensional that is critical is going to be in the manual for the particular boiler you install. That is a source of "pain" for many as it's difficult to understand how a professional gets it wrong when the correct way is right there in the manual, one just needs to read.

As far as valves go, a general rule of thumb would be anywhere "stuff" can accumulate it's good to have a valve to clean out or flush that area. The lowest point on the wet return is one location. The lowest part of the piping connected to the boiler is another good location (perhaps after the Hartford loop). It all depends on the piping configuration that is done, every install is a bit different so having a checklist is difficult. Look through some of the pictures that the pros have posted on here and it can give you a rough idea of valve locations.

I'm sure others will chime in.

Hap_Hazzard

I imagine the reason it's hard to find a checklist is that there's not a boiler or a basement. The specifications the pros develop are based on what's required by the boiler and possible in the basement it's going into.

We're not pros, so maybe it would be fun if we put our heads together and tried to develop a checklist using the knowledge we've gained here and the resources Dan has provided under the supervision of those knowledgeable and experienced pros. It might be amusing for them too.

If you're game, tell us what boiler you've chosen and post some pictures of your basement and details of the installed piping.

EzzyT

I generate a checklist once I've done a full system analysis, thats the first step in my eyes

KC_Jones

If we did generate a list as a group perhaps we could get it listed on the site in the help section and refer people to it? Who wants to be the secretary?

adamfre

If you haven't got it yet, Dan's book 'The Lost Art of Steam Heating' would go a long way towards giving you the knowledge to put together your list. He covers everything you listed in your post. Also a .pdf copy of whatever boiler you choose's manual would be very helpful.

curiousburke_2

I wish a checklist were available, but it's great that some people are interested in making it. Generating one as a group sounds great. I'm game to talk specifically about my boiler (Peerless 63-04L), but I was assuming the list would be somewhat universal; things like what KC_Jones said: have cleanout valves on "the lowest point on the wet return" and "lowest part of the piping connected to the boiler". Maybe also a useful or minimum size for these valves and which type ball/gate could be listed. I'm sure a good install is not easy, but it can't be more than a few dozen things to check.

I do have "The Lost Art ...", and I'm sure all the info that would be on the list is in there, but it also contains a lot more, which makes a difficult way to specify or check a good install. You're right also about the manual, and I think that is part of what made me ask the question in the first place. It had some notices listed that seemed quite general:

1) "Do not use bushings or concentric reducers in the horizontal header piping. This will prevent water from dropping into the equalizer and cause water carryover into the steam piping."

2) "Do not reduce the size or number of steam supply risers below the minimum shown in Table 4.1. Insufficient or undersized risers can cause damage to the boiler."

3) "Do not use a bullhead tee to provide steam supply to the system. This will cause water carryover into the steam piping."

4) "Use swing joints to attach to the header to avoid damage to the boiler due to thermal expansion and contraction of steam header pipe. " (this was wrong on my old system)

5) "Always locate the steam supply take-off of the main header between the equalizer and the last boiler supply riser. Locating the steam supply between the risers will cause a bullhead tee and cause water carryover into the system" (this was wrong on my old system)

They also list some of the other more general things. 24" between waterline and header. Hartford loop necessary and piped 2" to 4" below normal water line. But, thet don't list everything, like what about header pitch? Or, maybe that's not important. Maybe this begs the question, which manufacturer has the best/most complete set of installation instructions? Do any of the recommend drop headers?

I can list a whole bunch of things, but I'm just hunting around in the dark having never done even one install. It sounds like EzzyT may already has the foundation of a list if he is willing to help ...

STEAM DOCTOR

@curiousburke. I think the sequence of events is a bit backwards over here. You are hiring a plumber to install your boiler and YOU are giving HIM a checklist?? If you don't trust him without your checklist then you probably should be hiring someone else. Don't get me wrong. A checklist is great thing to have. But it's by no means an end all. Any checklist will inherently be incomplete because every situation has it's unique twists and turns. Pilots also have checklists. But they must be pilots first and only then are they qualified to use the checklists and aids and enhancers. You can't pull a guy off the street, give him a checklist and tell him to fly a plane. Not trying to knock anyone. Just trying to help out

curiousburke_2

Maybe you are correct as a general rule, but a checklist would still be useful to check an installation, for DIY'ers and for my case in which I have a plumber I like that isn't a steam expert. He also knows that I like to get into the details and "help".

curiousburke_2

Here's one item that maybe there is a best practice for, but manufacturers differ. Peerless instructs to use a downward facing reducing elbow between the header and the equalizer. Slant Fin instructs that the equalizer should be full size from the header to the waterline.

ratio

Sounds like there should be a generic "equalizer should be sized _____ & reduce to _____ at the () water line or () Hartford Loop." 'Course if you can get that information from the manual yourself, you're probably qualified to do the work too...

Sounds an awful lot like a specification. I'm not sure if I'd like to get a spec from a homeowner without having known him some time though.

curiousburke_2

I like that, with the blanks, so the list is just a reminder to check that this or that is sized according to specs.

EzzyT

I agree with @STEAM DOCTOR.

KC_Jones

curiousburke said:

I wish a checklist were available, but it's great that some people are interested in making it. Generating one as a group sounds great. I'm game to talk specifically about my boiler (Peerless 63-04L), but I was assuming the list would be somewhat universal; things like what KC_Jones said: have cleanout valves on "the lowest point on the wet return" and "lowest part of the piping connected to the boiler". Maybe also a useful or minimum size for these valves and which type ball/gate could be listed. I'm sure a good install is not easy, but it can't be more than a few dozen things to check.

I do have "The Lost Art ...", and I'm sure all the info that would be on the list is in there, but it also contains a lot more, which makes a difficult way to specify or check a good install. You're right also about the manual, and I think that is part of what made me ask the question in the first place. It had some notices listed that seemed quite general:

1) "Do not use bushings or concentric reducers in the horizontal header piping. This will prevent water from dropping into the equalizer and cause water carryover into the steam piping."

2) "Do not reduce the size or number of steam supply risers below the minimum shown in Table 4.1. Insufficient or undersized risers can cause damage to the boiler."

3) "Do not use a bullhead tee to provide steam supply to the system. This will cause water carryover into the steam piping."

4) "Use swing joints to attach to the header to avoid damage to the boiler due to thermal expansion and contraction of steam header pipe. " (this was wrong on my old system)

5) "Always locate the steam supply take-off of the main header between the equalizer and the last boiler supply riser. Locating the steam supply between the risers will cause a bullhead tee and cause water carryover into the system" (this was wrong on my old system)

They also list some of the other more general things. 24" between waterline and header. Hartford loop necessary and piped 2" to 4" below normal water line. But, thet don't list everything, like what about header pitch? Or, maybe that's not important. Maybe this begs the question, which manufacturer has the best/most complete set of installation instructions? Do any of the recommend drop headers?

I can list a whole bunch of things, but I'm just hunting around in the dark having never done even one install. It sounds like EzzyT may already has the foundation of a list if he is willing to help ...

I think on some level you answered your own question and verified some of the things being said. The reason you read these items as "general" is because it takes a certain amount of knowledge to interpret the meaning. I read that list and for every item it makes complete sense to me, but for someone without any knowledge it won't.

If you show those items to your plumber and they don't understand then their basic knowledge is a bit in question in my mind.

I am kind of curious why you seem to be opposed to hiring a good steam contractor if there is one in your area? Where are you located?

SWEI

Comfort-Calc had a great start on this which many of us pointed people at for years. Looks like they went offline sometime early this year, so here's an archived copy:
https://web.archive.org/web/20151207135914/http://www.comfort-calc.net/Steam_Piping_Donts.cfm

curiousburke_2

Hey SWEI, that is great! Very informative, both in the initial correct setup and the mistakes. I wonder why it was taken down; I'm sure a lot of people here could add to it.

I'm not pushing anyone to create a list, I was just hoping to find one. If I can't find one, I'll try to compile my own just so I know what to talk about with my plumber, though I'm not qualified. Maybe the list fits into the category of "a little knowledge is dangerous".

You could probably guess why I didn't go with a steam expert; I'm a control freak when it comes to this stuff. I want to know exactly what is going to be done; I'm too untrusting. I spoke to three people I consider steam experts, one I didn't get enough info from for me to give him the job, one didn't get back to me (I don't blame him, maybe busy or just didn't want to deal with me), and the third one didn't work out because of some details that I wanted. I don't blame any of them, and I've already told my regular plumber he has the job. In general, I find working with contractors stressful, and since I have a guy I know and like, it makes the whole thing a little less stressful for me.

Paul48

@SWEI .......It's funny you found that. I looked for it again myself. It's a shame they went offline. I use to steer folks at their info all the time, it was simple and straight-forward.

Hap_Hazzard

This video covers the basics pretty well. https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/steam-boiler-near-boiler-piping-video/