The Lure of Online Suppliers

HeatingHelp

The Lure of Online Suppliers

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AnthonyReikow

This Country was founded around small business not online business. We are in a people business. I agree with lots of the contractors that say supporting a local distributor is where it's at and it should stay that way. I for one as a rep cannot support a product a contractor when a product is purchased online. I have a daughter to feed and support and I take exception to food being taken from her mouth; as any father would. This business is a business of loyalty. I support anyone in my territory even if it's a night or weekend. an online supplier is not able to do that. let's see how easy it is to get them to come out on a night or weekend. The first act of love is the freedom of choice so anyone can but from whomever they want. I can't tell them where or who to buy from but I too have a choice and that is to support those who support me, my company and the manufactures we represent.

WHAT'S THAT WORTH.

Vote with your dollar and get the most bang for your buck by supporting the local distributor.

Heating Help is a small family business and I thank them for supporting us in the trade.

SWEI

Great job of summarizing the issue, Dan. It really is a tough call for those of us who are not located in or near a major city. We do about 70% of our business with regional wholesalers, but would happily increase if the support (and stock) was there.

hot_rod

A lot of online businesses are small businesses. Others are divisions of rep firms, and it seem some are attached to large international wholesalers. So the challenge is how to coexisit, I doubt online is going away.

There are some online companies that offer excellent support, better that some manufacturers.

I'd rather support a mom and pop online than a large box store that put all the small hardware, lumber, electrical and HVAC suppliers out of business in many areas, mine included.

One work around might be that the rep gets credited for the online sales that flow through his territory.

An recent online purchase example

I wanted some special strut for a small project this week, one 10 foot piece. I called my local wholesalers that I have and continue to support. They could only get it added to the next drop order, could be weeks or months.

I went online to the manufacturer of the product, they sell direct also. It arrived at my door step less than 36 hours later. So people along the line were employed building, packing, trucking the product. Maybe a rep got commission on the sale, it was a more expensive option, so I hope so and don't mind although they added no value in this case.

They did want to know my zip code before they quoted pricing, that sometimes indicates a rep will be involved.

The reps have and will continue to be of great value in technical products, sales, training, and support and should be payed well for that if they do a good job and add value. For basic commodity products it's tougher for a rep to add value.

STEVEusaPA

It's a 2 way street. If the rep is good, he/she probably has a loyal customer base. Sometimes the rep can be great and the company can be bad, or vice-versa. But as @hot rod stated, sometimes company policy shoots the company in the foot.
I buy almost exclusively locally, except for Tekmar & Caleffi products. Closest to me is a 2.5-3 hour round trip. That's a lot of time out of my day.
And the 2 large local, well-known suppliers are stocking less. With anything (now labeled as) 'special' get's shipping charges and other charges if you need it quickly. I can get those things online the next day, less expensive, less added fees.
The worse example is:

"We don't have any here, but I can get it for you from our main warehouse in 2 days..." (at a higher price).
Darn auto-correct, I meant to type Granger's.

Times do change. I'm trying to hold on, but it isn't easy.

Sailah

Interesting discussion and one, we as a manufacturer, deal with often. We continue to support our reps with the very best in service, pricing and availability. We are also in a somewhat niche business and to be perfectly frank, many distributors don't have the requisite experience to guide the customers.

Many times the customers will call us direct, we help them and we refer them to their local distributor. Where did they earn their commission? They don't stock it, I spent an hour helping the contractor with the parts etc.

As noted about selling direct, we don't do it. Not saying it doesn't happen every once in awhile but we work to protect our distributors.

That said the online outlets move products and we would be foolish to not take advantage of those markets.

hot_rod

Sailah said:

Interesting discussion and one, we as a manufacturer, deal with often. We continue to support our reps with the very best in service, pricing and availability. We are also in a somewhat niche business and to be perfectly frank, many distributors don't have the requisite experience to guide the customers.

Many times the customers will call us direct, we help them and we refer them to their local distributor. Where did they earn their commission? They don't stock it, I spent an hour helping the contractor with the parts etc.

As noted about selling direct, we don't do it. Not saying it doesn't happen every once in awhile but we work to protect our distributors.

That said the online outlets move products and we would be foolish to not take advantage of those markets.

And of course for every rule there is an exception. Also abuses of the system at all levels. I have heard of manufacturers selling around the rep to land a large project. Rep territories sometimes cross or their wholesalers have branches in multiple states.

It can get very complicated.

Trust, and a well written contract are some thoughts.

John Mills_5

The sad thing is, local distributors aren't local anymore. Thinking of our area, there are only a few locally owned supply houses. We have some regional outfits that cover a few states but also more and more getting the national chains like Larson, Michel, URI, HD Supply, Winair and of course Grainger. Yes, buying from them you are supporting local managers, counterpeople, salespeople & warehouse/drivers. But the profits are going back to wealthy owners living who knows where. Service from the biggies can be hit & miss.

Our best distributor, a class act that gives service every supplier should, is a multi state family biz run from here, owned by 2 daughters of the founder. I hear the 3rd generation will be there soon after he gets his degrees. That's the way it used to be, glad to see at least 1 will stay that way.

Sailah

hot rod said:

And of course for every rule there is an exception. Also abuses of the system at all levels. I have heard of manufacturers selling around the rep to land a large project. Rep territories sometimes cross or their wholesalers have branches in multiple states.

It can get very complicated.

Trust, and a well written contract are some thoughts.

Totally correct. We have distributors that span nationwide and also across defined territories. Those territories were drawn up before Alaska became a state...It can get tricky, more so with reps who I don't feel earn their keep. The good reps, like loyal customers, are always working in our best interest. Which is where the trust comes in.

Back to the service part. Many distributors don't even carry product. The online guys do, some of them. Where's the service when you need something yesterday and it's 5 days for me to UPS drop ship vs 2 day shipping with Amazon?

I guess there is no simple answer. We are happy to provide outlets for our products to be online and glad they fill a role. I also support my distribution network 100%. Bottom line is that we will stand behind our products no matter where they got them, but there is no chance I'm going into work on a Saturday for someone that hasn't earned it like a hardworking rep.

NY_Rob

I've seen the "go local" issue go both ways...

When my burner guy was at my house (coincidentally, on the coldest day of last winter) he made several quick calls to the local supply house for new jobs as they came in- barked out his orders to the counter guy and hung up. As he was leaving he called his wife, instructed her to go to the supply house and pick up his stuff and where to meet up with him with the parts. Fast/easy/efficient!

I went in to that same exact supply house two months later- I needed twenty five 1/2" CTS and twenty five 3/4" CTS padded split ring clamps- the counter guy responded by pointing to a plywood board behind the counter with various clamps mounted on it and said "I only sell what guys buy". He didn't even offer to lookup for ordering the clamps I wanted.
Two days later I stopped in and inquired about a Grundfos Alpha, again "I don't carry that.... nobody out here uses those." This time I asked if he could get one for me... he did a quick lookup- he was literally double the cost of getting it from supplyhouse/pex universe.

StephenPelosa

I've done both. I am a home owner and had problems with my local supply house. Yes i've gotten disrespect from the counter man. Also, on a fuel tank. When i called I was put on hold. He called a huge supply house and tacked on a little profit for himself. I know he did this for two reasons. First, he didn't have the room to store a large supply of tanks and second I saw his errand boy at the supply house buying supplies. Online purchases hasn't been bad.

BigRob

For me it comes down to pure economics. If pros were a good value in my area I would use them. Since they're not, I shop online, and sometimes local, including big box. Paying top dollar for low quality is hard to swallow. And it happens a lot. As I see it the construction industry is shooting itself in the foot by not embracing new technologies and products which provide more value to the customer. I hear very little "voice of the customer" in this industry. I also feel pros try to lock homeowners out of the business altogether- control the supply lines, control the industry. That's unAmerican to me. Compete on quality and service, not by controlling who can buy what. People used to be self-sufficient in this country. Now they can't even change a wall switch. So is controlling supply of goods and work short or long term thinking? I say short term. We are creating a culture of "hands-off" people and it will destroy this country. No more cartels. I'm sick of this country being run into the ground by special interest groups and a few companies that control a huge number of brands, thereby pushing prices higher. There is no reason any circuit breaker should cost over $50, or wireless lighting automation over $50 a fixture. The local supplier/rep model is too exclusive and dated. We need open markets. I'm glad to see completion in the industry. It needs a huge kick in the nutts. We also need more vocational training. I work for a German company and their techs are so good and have great pride in their work. The German vocational model is one we should copy.

njtommy

It's simple to use on line shopping most of the time.
My time is worth worth money. I have to go to 2-3 supply houses to get the products I like when it comes down to pumps, flanges, zone valves, and other odds and ends.

I want matching fittings. If I ask for 2 tees Don't give me 1-1/2 t x 1-1/4 then 1-1/2 X 1-1/2 with a fitting reducer.

I like to try and stay uniformed, but in a pitch or an emergency I take what I can get my hands on to get everything running agian.

keyote

one big frustration is pricing and sourcing locals dont want to give info on phone for fear its futile but i dont want to drive around constantly sourcing and pricing, for a lot of stuff amazon can have it at my door in a day or two with a no questions asked garuntee free return shipping and usually best price.some supply houses can be better at service but i find its been a steady decline over the decades. A smart supply house is going to do both he going to be online and this will allow a bigger inventory and possibly a fast pickup even on stuff thats ordered.what get messed up is the rep system i dont have to worry about which co are rep at which houses when on line.i cant tell you how many times i just decided against a product because i couldn't source it online, if a company is purposelessly hiding its price and limiting its distribution to protect its price **** em im not into that game.I might be fine paying a bit more for a quality item a american made product to be able to pick it up that day to return it more easily to even support a local business that i judge is trying to support local tradesman, but im not in to being gamed.
the bottom line though is you have to compete with the internet or die doesnt matter what you think about it, i have a place near a sleep idaho logging town before we had HD the local building supply houses knew your choice for price was a 45- mile or 75 mile drive to the two bigger towns between time and gas they would routinely keep prices as much as 20% higher to hell with that.I laughed at them when they complained after the big boxes moved in to town. a few of them figured out how to compete with HD its not hard service delivery quality selection and knowledge. but too many supply houses have none of that but think i owe them allegiance anyway

Robert O'Brien

If they have it in stock, local is quicker and usually somewhat cheaper. If they have to order it, it's faster and easier to buy online

DanHolohan

Bob has a delicious way of cutting to the chase. Ah, brevity!

Robert O'Brien

For the brick and mortar guys, you can't sell from an empty cart

jumper

I knew a pump shop that stocked and charged extra for immediate delivery. If customer was willing to wait the cycle he'd sell at standard price. In those days factory would build one size then another and it could take eight weeks for the size you needed to come along. Smart customer would rebuild old pump and keep it on hand for the next time. Smart vendors would give a credit for broken pump.

L Thiesen

I have little sympathy for the traditional supply houses, I used to buy all of my plumbing supply's from them but no more. I have several large chains and one family owned supply house within an hours drive from me but the service is just so so and the prices to me are high. As an example I can buy Delta faucets from the local Ace Hardware store for 25 to 30 percent less than the so called wholesale house. Now I understand that I don't buy a large quantity at one time but I really don't get the discount that the big shops get. And yes I pay my bill every month, so I don't feel guilty shopping on line.

A.J.

just one more reason

A.J.

We bid a steam boiler change out in an old church here in our area but we didn't end up getting the job because the price was to high. Turns out that one of the parishioners bought a boiler online and installed it himself by just cutting the supply and return and siding the new boiler in . Needless to say it didn't heat and the fuel bill was high along with the lack of the proper paper work to the state. The manufactures rep was nice enough to come out and take a look before we repiped and installed the proper safeties . This wouldn't have been sold over the counter at one of our local supply houses. How many of you would change out a piece of heating equipment if the home owner was supplying everything ? Our trade skills are not a commodity like bananas at the grocery store.
Needless to say they didn't save any money.

New England SteamWorks

keyote said:

the bottom line though is you have to compete with the internet or die doesn't matter what you think about it,

A.J. said:

How many of you would change out a piece of heating equipment if the home owner was supplying everything ?

The first quote is quite true.

The second quote deserves it's own thread....

Fred

I need a part and I went on-line today to order it. I like to think I support my local suppliers but sometimes it is just easier to go on-line. Anyway, before I ordered it, I decided I'd check out who might have it locally. I found two Dealers that have what I need and both are 15% less than the on-line sources I looked at. All are OEM parts. SO, tomorrow I will set out to see if they actually have one in stock. It's always easy to sell something at less cost when you don't have any to sell. We'll see

LionA29

I tried supporting the small guys only to find out that his pricing is almost double what I can get it for. So I went with the big Pro store which was stocked and less expensive. If I have time, I always order online.
So I don't get it why the small local guy is so inflated. Sad to say.

Fred

Update: Well, neither local Dealers had the part in stock. sigh
I told them they were retail wonders! Able to stay in business by under-cutting the on-line pricing AND not having to carry any inventory to sell! Genius!

Fred

Hatterasguy said:

Fred said:

Race to the bottom..............

That it is.

ChrisJ

Online retailers are here now and if local places can't compete they can't compete.

Another fact is the big box stores killed off most of the local small shops long ago and I can't stand the big box stores.

Supporting local is a good thing, but online places support local shipping workers at UPS, USPS and Fedex. The more you buy online, the more business shipping companies get.


We could all start complaining about how the trucking industry and airplanes killed off the railroads or how television killed radio while we're at it or how Thomas Edison's gramophone killed off the player piano business. There was an awful lot of money in horses until the damn automobile came around.

The world is evolving and always changing.

aircooled81

Cell phones and quarters.
Times are changing, as they always do.
Everyone (back-in-the-day) could make all their calls at the office or a pay phone. Now most don't answer the office phone, can't find a pay phone, and own a cell phone anyways.
What's the difference here, we didn't put the phone company out of business. The federal government still makes quarters.
Learn to adapt, keep-up, these are the only things that never change.

Solid_Fuel_Man

Look at Kodak, once the largest film-producer in the world. Now....gonezos... Keep up with the times or become a dinosaur.

If we all just buy online the local guys will be gone, and the online guys will have the monopoly. Back to where we started, until the next best thing comes along.

Taylor

Sal Santamaura

Solid_Fuel_Man said:

Look at Kodak, once the largest film-producer in the world. Now....gonezos...

An incorrect myth. Kodak emerged from bankruptcy and still makes film. I buy and use it all the time, in addition to having a freezer full of Kodak film stock that I rotate through.

Solid_Fuel_Man

Wow, I actually had no idea. I am more out of touch than originally thought!

Taylor

ChrisJ

Film is still used for a lot of things, but even that market continues to shrink including the professional photography market as well as motion pictures.

Robert O'Brien

ChrisJ said:

Online retailers are here now and if local places can't compete they can't compete.

Another fact is the big box stores killed off most of the local small shops long ago and I can't stand the big box stores.

Supporting local is a good thing, but online places support local shipping workers at UPS, USPS and Fedex. The more you buy online, the more business shipping companies get.


We could all start complaining about how the trucking industry and airplanes killed off the railroads or how television killed radio while we're at it or how Thomas Edison's gramophone killed off the player piano business. There was an awful lot of money in horses until the damn automobile came around.

The world is evolving and always changing.

How about mod/cons killing steam?

ChrisJ

Robert O'Brien said:

ChrisJ said:

Online retailers are here now and if local places can't compete they can't compete.

Another fact is the big box stores killed off most of the local small shops long ago and I can't stand the big box stores.

Supporting local is a good thing, but online places support local shipping workers at UPS, USPS and Fedex. The more you buy online, the more business shipping companies get.


We could all start complaining about how the trucking industry and airplanes killed off the railroads or how television killed radio while we're at it or how Thomas Edison's gramophone killed off the player piano business. There was an awful lot of money in horses until the damn automobile came around.

The world is evolving and always changing.

How about mod/cons killing steam?

Not hardly.
Forced air is the only thing with a chance and that's killing your modcons as well.