intimidated by pump selection

Boon

Backstory: homeowner, home run system, KHN085, buffer, runtal panels, 38k heat load, indirect DHW (TT Smart 50).

I've avoided choosing circulators until now. I can't delay any longer as I need to start piping. Fortunately the KHN came with the Grundfos 15-58 so I'm down to choosing 2 out of 3. While I'm trying to learn the 'how & why' of the selection process [with an eye for how to control the darn thing], I won't be upset if you toss out some appropriate pump suggestions for me to research further.

So if I may... at design, I'm seeing 4 gpm to my radiators. The [estimated] 1000' of 1/2" pex has a piping head loss a little over 4' [oops that might only be the pipe and not the rads and fittings; I will revisit this]. These numbers are so small, how about I use a 12v solar fountain pump? kidding... but seriously these numbers are small. Even if I'm off by 100%+ on the head loss ... 8' or 12' head, ... the gpm is right and the numbers are still small. Just about any ∆P 0-10v pump should do the trick, right, but picking any pump in that genre seems like a great way to be wrong.

And for DHW, using the KHN085 and Smart 50, about 20' of 1" piping and 8 or 10 ells, ... I don't know what the strategy should be... I can easily outperform the traditional 50gal tank I'm replacing. Do I quickly recovery at, say, 12 gpm, or do I slow down the gpm and let the system run for a while longer? I have a mixing valve and was thinking of keeping 145-150° water in the tank.

After pump selection comes flange chat. I like the idea of isolation flanges cause they look cool, I like valves, and they're in the budget. And I'm pretty sure I won't be the first person to sweat a flange in that doesn't align with the opposite flange. Basic, cast iron flanges would be fine but then I'm mixing copper & steel and I thought that was to be avoided.

Thanks everybody,
Boon

hot_rod

Pretty much all the smaller circs are multiple speed selectable, pick a color or brand you prefer.

As for flanges, isolation are worth their weight in gold when service is needed. The Webstone with the purge port are also very handy.

With sweat flanges, install the pump, bolt it in, then solder. If you are worried about over-heating the pump, remove the two or 4 allen bolts and pull the power head out, but it should not be needed.

When installing multiple pumps, I kept a bunch of blank pump bodies for that. No sense dripping solder on the pumps when you just need a spacing jig.

Here is a good read for sizing circulators, it covers fixed speed and variable speed selection criteria.


http://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/coll_attach_file/idronics_16_na_0.pdf

Zman

The typical setup for a system like yours would be a 15-58 on the DHW (probably speed1) and a Grundfos Alpha for the zones.
It is really better to run the math to be sure it works.
If you post a drawing of your system with pipe sizes and lengths you will get better feedback.

Gordy

1000' of pex @ 4' of head tells nothing except trust your math.

Gordy

I'm curious as to why the buffer.

Boon

I just picked up a bunch of copper and strut and will start putting things in place this weekend; I'll have a more accurate head number once I figure out placement of things.

I'm curious as to why the buffer.

We wanted to zone bedrooms and a couple baths. One bedroom is 1450 Btuh, another 2300, each bathroom is around 1000-ish. I just talked it through with the wife and we are both ok ditching the tiny zones, which I think means we could ditch the buffer and have three bigger zones - each floor 10k, 12k, 14k.

... pipe it P/S? Why would you do that with the capability that the KHN has?

Because I know & understand P/S. But moreso ... because I don't know the KHN's capabilities so I don't know how they'd help me or how they could shift the design away from P/S. Every piping diagram in the KHN I&O is P/S.

If not P/S.... what is the alternative? I've had my head stuck on P/S for so long that is all I know. Oh ... there is an idronics for this! I scanned that new one yesterday. But I'm pretty much at capacity for redesign. I would like simpler but I don't know if my head can take it. I attached a rough sketch of what I assume would be the alternative. . It isn't too late to change my design but only if it is simple. Really, between my day job, a couple dogs, no A/C, and doing nothing but second guessing myself I'm exhausted.

I'd like to see the system with a VT2218 and confirm that the boiler can handle it.

If you'd like to take a working vacation in Washington DC ....

Zman

I am not sure where you came up with the drawing. I don't see it in the manual. http://www.lochinvar.com/_linefiles/KH-I-O_Rev C_100267332_2000508039.pdf

Unless you are very comfortable with hydronic design, it is best to stick with the manufactures recommendations.

Figure 6-4 on page 40 looks like it would work for you.

To size your circulator, pipe size and length is needed. Particularly the tubing to the radiators.

Paul48

It would be interesting to see a single delta T circ used, but I wonder how you would set the flow to each manifold, and would it remain proportionately accurate across all pump speeds? @hot rod

Tinman

Long before all else fails and you've touched a single length of pipe, read the manuals. Every page. Pros and DIY's.

Boon

@Zman pg 40 is what I've been planning to pipe all along. It doesn't fit too well in my mechanical room so truthfully I wouldn't mind a design without buffer. I wouldn't go off-trail with my own piping diagram. That sketch was a ugly guess at what I now know is "Figure 6-13 Single Boiler - Full Flow - Single Temperature Zoned with Valves - DHW Piped as a Zone." @Hatterasguy, I have no idea why I didn't see those. Actually I do but I'll save the story for the reunion episode.

I understand what is going on in Figures 6-12 & 13 and the math says I don't need a buffer. I'll sketch this out in my space and see how I can make it fit. I assume it will be a better fit and honestly I'm excited about it, except for the rework part.

If I jump back to pump selection for a moment, I can plot my numbers on a pump curve and select a circ that will do the mechanical work I need. The root of my intimidation is knowing if my selection would be both appropriate for the piping in Figures 6-12/13 and make the best use of the KHN's capabilities. Lochinvar U is the next stop for me today.

Paul48

That's why this site is so valuable. The manufacturers get so caught up in marketing, they tend to leave certain info out of their manuals. The pros here, can usually answer from experience, the things the manufacturers forget to mention. Thanks for being the guinea pigs folks! Your knowledge is very much appreciated.

hot_rod

Well put in the above two post. Information overload!!

It is great that the installation manuals include options and drawings on piping and other parts of the installation. That has improved greatly over the years, thanks to the manufacturers.

It is very important that you understand how and why the various options work, Why P?S or hydrosep, or buffer tanks might be the best choice.

There is plenty of good reading on all the various topics. Shop the bookstore here at HH. Dan has spent a lifetime writing easily digestible books on hydronics and steam. Plenty of magazine articles to find archived.

The common thread that you and keyote mentioned is that you "skimmed" sections of the manuals or tech journals,
ya really need to sit down spend a few hours and read, and understand, cover to cover. Even a single word that you don't understand, stop, look it up before you read on. Cavitation is one of those words

My suggestion, being a trainer and Caleffi guy would be to read Idronics 16 cover to cover, insert your own numbers into the formulas and play around with what ifs.

It is much easier for the HH group to guide you if you have all the basics down first. It's tough to go from a heatload number to which type of pump should I buy without filling in a bunch of other blanks first.

hot_rod

Lochinvar shows two VS pump options, both are fairly large for the smaller boiler.

I've never seen one, but Grundfos shows a 15-42VS. That would be a close size for the 55 or 80 boilers. Maybe find some old inventory on E-bay






It appears the PSC style circs are all being phased out and replaced with all ECM stuff. Start downloading apps, that is where we are headed, adjust your pumps from the LazyBoy!.

Rich_49

This newer tool will allow folks to make a few concrete decisions and then the ability to easily change from P/S to direct piping .

http://www.htproducts.com/literature/QZMS-Brochure.pdf

hot_rod

I hope they would offer ECM circs if zone pumping is the goal?

Boon

I missed those KHN diagrams - twice yesterday! - and I'm embarrassed.

I really have been reading every manual and instructions sheet for everything, up, down, and sideways for every last component, verifying ASTM, UL, and any rating for everything that touches this project. And I pulled permits for this work. I might be DIY'ing but I'm not taking any shortcuts. When I ask the inspectors some questions they have consistently referred me to manufacturers' instructions.

I've really hit these manuals/publications/books/etc hard since January/February. I've read several cover to cover multiple times. idronics 16 had a lot of material that I've previously dug through and the calculations, etc are already plugged in to my Excel sheets. I calculated everything. You name it, I calculated it. I had a dream that I calculated the Cv of my ^%#! and when I woke up ... ah, nevermind. When did hot & cold start dating? After they attended the mixer! [tip your waiter] I would take my numbers to the moon and back.

While I can read and re-read, and I can calculate the dickens out of my system there is that pesky cliche about "no substitute for experience." Same for hands-on training. Neither of which I have in this field and both of which I'm about to need desperately. Putting what is on my paper into [smart, efficient] practice is what truly has me pickled.

I've used the last 6+ months to narrowly focus my attention on the "how & why" of a P/S + buffer that will work for me and in which I have complete confidence. But in the last week that has turned on its head as I discover my boiler is far more fabulous and capable than I planned on leveraging or thought it could be, and that [the wife & I] are willing to ditch the small zones. It is late in the game for me to make a piping switch but I really need to try.

@hot rod @Hatterasguy thank you for the directional nudges I will dive into your comments today. I'd love to see one pump do the job [Fig 6-13] but it is currently beyond my understanding of how [and how to program] a boiler & single pump to perform those jobs. I will also see if I can call Lochinvar and ask a couple questions.

I know there will come a time (I budgeted for it) when I need to recognize my limits and hire someone and I think that day is sooner than later.

Cavitation... that is what happens when you eat sugary foods and don't brush your teeth.

Rich_49

Hatt and Bob ,

Did either of you read or did you just look at the pictures ? this panel is offered as a zone valve config also . In that incarnation one could imagine that there is one pump .

Rich_49

Boon ,

Unfortunately pictures can be misleading . If , and I believe you are intending to use a VS circ of either pumping strategy you DO NOT REQUIRE a PDBV .

Boon

ahead of the curve as compared to anyone that you might hire for this task.

Ahead of the curve.... good one! Thanks. I feel more like point of static pressure. Yes, the people I tried to hire inspired me to DIY. I do believe I've discovered at least one very qualified local person through this forum and fingers crossed he would be willing to help at this point.

It's always fun to visit the nation's capital, pros! I encourage all of you to visit DC in the next couple weeks and stop by my place to say hello!

Boon

Thanks Rich. I knew I didn't need it for my first piping scheme and I noted to ask Lochinvar about it on that Fig 6-13 diagram.

Rich_49

Was it not you that stated HTP says you cannot use a Delta T circ with a UFT with CONVICTION ?

Was it not you that stated Taco needs to fix the VT2218 with CONVICTION ?

What has changed in the past couple days ? Difference between you and I is that I install systems that work as designed , probably because they were designed and not thrown together with a prayer , another difference is that I stand firm for years in my statements and theory , I can because they continue to be successful in the real world . Your thoughts and flip flopping are documented right here for those who care to investigate before they follow your advice and act as your guinea pig . In the last few days you have given the advice to others that I shared with you before your disaster that was everyone else's fault but your own . You continue to stir and nix the bowl in which the cream has already risen to the top leaving a mixture of completely unusable product whereas there were 2 clear products before .

Maybe this gentleman with real questions will read the Brochure I posted and realize that HTP , which buy your account knows nothing is offering a pre packaged , customized reverse return panel that can be used either direct or P/S , Circs or zone valves , ECM or PSC .

Carry on Phony . In case your looking BBW apparel is in aisle 7 .

hot_rod

I was asking about an ECM option for the zone pump panel on the pic. Rarely do you need 80W or power to move the loads, The ECM could be the Ultra Efficient version.

Rich said:

Hatt and Bob ,

Did either of you read or did you just look at the pictures ? this panel is offered as a zone valve config also . In that incarnation one could imagine that there is one pump .

Rich_49

Sorry Bob . You probably just missed the options available listed on page 4 of the brochure .

Rich_49

You should contact FMI ( Dan Foley) . Maybe he would consult you on what the final install should be .

Foley Mechanical , Lorton Va

hot_rod

I see now.

What is the QZM "S" version? Any version with the * removed and the optional selection?

A picture of one with ECMs installed would be nice.

Are the "E" versions Grundfos Alphas

Rich said:

Sorry Bob . You probably just missed the options available listed on page 4 of the brochure .

Rich_49

hot rod said:

I see now.

What is the QZM "S" version? Any version with the * removed and the optional selection?

A picture of one with ECMs installed would be nice.

Are the "E" versions Grundfos Alphas

Rich said:

Sorry Bob . You probably just missed the options available listed on page 4 of the brochure .

Relatively new product Bob . Do know all pump options will be Taco . Am looking into whether one can choose between VT or VR

NY_Rob

Wonder if HTP makes (cuts the pipe/solders the joints/components, etc) the Quick Zone Manifold System here, or it's made in Korea and "finished" here like their UFT boilers?

hot_rod

I appreciate HTP going to the effort to offer plug and play modules. They have all the nice components included, well layed out.

This concept has, and is already, being done, The Watts Radiant hydrocontrol panels have been around since the 90's.

Some brands have sold, others never really took off.
Robert Bean had one of the nicest designs with the ZCP modules. They were in a nice powder coated box, top shelf components. Mount them,connect unions and wires and away you go. I think the cost and ability to cover all the options got overwhelming. If it is a custom built product, order time gets in the way as dealers could never stock all the options.

Danfoss also tried for awhile, a few Canadian companies still offer custom built piping modules. One version has a bent stainless piping, no solder joints, very classy.

Many installers take pride in the piping work they perform, see Stephens work above post. When they look at the cost, and loss of craftmenship that they like to add to the job, the deal starts to crumble.

HTP has a network and following, maybe this will work.

Now for a DIY market, I see more potential and value. Maybe it should go out as a Westinghouse brand?

Rich_49

Hatterasguy said:

Rich said:

Was it not you that stated HTP says you cannot use a Delta T circ with a UFT with CONVICTION ?

"With conviction". **** does that mean? They stated that the DT pump won't work with the UFT despite many efforts to try to get it work.

Rich :
I repeat that it will not work in your system , not all systems . HTP has only attempted to duplicate your system which is impossible .

Rich said:

Was it not you that stated Taco needs to fix the VT2218 with CONVICTION ?

I did state that the response from the VT2218 is way too fast for the UFT and probably too fast for most mod-cons. HTP has attempted to increase the response of the UFT and got close to the point where the VT would work.

You're well aware of the above and simply wish to continue to protect your two favorite vendors. The reason is really unfathomable.

Rich :
Not really protecting anyone as much as pointing out that you put that together because you know it all when you should have made some simple changes to the arrangement or chosen a different combination of equipment . You learned that you cannot force something to work without taking into account the existing configuration . Don't feel bad , most M.E s do that regularly .

Rich said:

What has changed in the past couple days ? Difference between you and I is that I install systems that work as designed , probably because they were designed and not thrown together with a prayer , another difference is that I stand firm for years in my statements and theory , I can because they continue to be successful in the real world .

Nothing has changed in the past couple of days.

The difference between you and I is that you have no capability to understand the physics or the engineering behind a product and you have blind faith that HTP and Taco will do the perfect job for you.

Rich:
Got it wrong again . I understand the physics and know when and what to do to build something successful . My longevity proves that out . I do not have blind faith in any manufacturer . Htp offers a wide variety of products and one would be hard pressed to not find a fit for their situation within that lineup . Same thing with Taco .

And, with regard to "thrown together with a prayer", the system was built per the HPT installation manual and you were well aware of exactly how I was going to do it.

Rich:
I thought I was aware of what you were going to do until you did it . I offered advice which you declined .

Furthermore, you have provided a factually incorrect suggestion to raise the head on the system to ensure that the boiler receives 1 GPM. This is completely erroneous and shows that your statements and theory have no basis in engineering.

Rich :
You must be correct . Because as you have told me , water temp has nothing to do with head either . I contend that 1 psi is a very big deal when discussing flows this low . When at the low end of the spectrum in a system such as yours having a low head equates to a higher flow and narrower Delta . Balancing that with your emitters and what they can shed is where equipment choice is made and what you must do . You are also aware that the vast majority of the systems I design or retrofit get extensive work done and usually have manifolds and homeruns with all emitters sized for 1gpm utilizing ODR and recognizing DeltaT . So your 60 feet of baseboard in series varies greatly than my 4 - 15 footers each flowing 1 gpm at design at various temps , head , flow . Rarely do my systems operate down there where I must **** around with head and sweat minimum flows and when the flow decreases based on Delta it is usually at lower water temps and maybe .5 gpm . Still 2 xs min flow requirement . In essence , my systems are nothing like yours and thus work as designed . but I have no basis to question or debate with you so I digress . You also know that I turn down jobs that cannot be done properly because of any number of restraints .

Rich said:

Maybe this gentleman with real questions will read the Brochure I posted and realize that HTP , which buy your account knows nothing is offering a pre packaged , customized reverse return panel that can be used either direct or P/S , Circs or zone valves , ECM or PSC .

Why would he need HTP to provide a pre-packaged panel at a premium price when he knows exactly how to pipe it himself per the installation manual?

Oh, wait...........don't answer that.

I'll do it for you:

HTP is the greatest boiler manufacturer in the world.

Rich:
Because labor costs money also and because where as it may not matter to you it might be something another would find useful . There is also no way to screw it up no matter what you are attempting to achieve .

Rich said:

Carry on Phony . In case your looking BBW apparel is in aisle 7 .

Well, in the Rich McGrath world of insults, I'm actually pleased with "phony". It's way better than "giant rectum" for which you have devoted to others on here.

Rich:
I always use appropriate terminology , at present Phony fits well .

You're not the designer you think you are my friend. The engineering gets in your way every time.

Rich:
Lucky for me several years ago I made the decision to not in the slightest form believe that I know it all and continue to learn . Been several years since a system did not perform as I presented it would and they continue to improve . Have not had a tuition payment for awhile now , Knock on wood .

Hundreds of customers with greatly improved comfort and an average fuel usage roughly 50% than prior to work would probably disagree . Many of them right from this site .

Zman

@Erin Holohan Haskell

At this point I am thinking that there should have a separate category for Hatt and Rich to bicker with each other.

It would be kind of fun, people could post an absolutely futile topic, it could be Delta p vs Delta T or some more productive like what color is the sky, then we could all just watch the magic. Those of us that like watching Nascar just for the crashes can tune in, otherwise it would be back to just heating help.

It would eliminate this senseless high jacking of perfectly good threads. This poor guy is trying to get some solid advise about a simple heat system and it is clogged up with this garbage...

I deal with far to many personality disorders on jobs to want to deal with it here.

Rich_49

Hatteras
s this new information? Did I ever suggest that the boiler and pump might not work in other systems?

What I did state, which apparently you cannot seem to grasp, is that the UFT/VT2218 will not work on a low mass system that is cold start.

Rich
Why yes you did . You vehemently stated that my systems do not work either . Right here in this forum .
Most of our objective for using ODR and mod cons is to avoid Cold Start . This is what you cannot grasp .

Hatteras
What I learned, and what you also learned if you were paying attention, is that the UFT does not have the control logic to keep up with the VT2218. And, short of putting lipstick on the pig, there is no solution for that.

But, since you have blind faith that HTP is faultless, I have no expectations of any improvement in the understanding of the situation by you.

FWIW, the UFT does a reasonably admirable job trying to stay running. But, the VT2218 is simply too fast.

Rich
In your discussed system I would have taken a different tach . If my pig is not pretty enough I choose another pig , I do not try to drink until the pig is pretty and wake up disgusted like you did . Some pigs just cannot get pretty . You and others know that I have no boiler plate and will utilize many different products and combinations based on my wants and needs .
I know even in your system it does an admirable job , yet you still chose to write about and discuss it .


Hatteras
If you actually understood the physics, you would realize that the VT2218 control logic is simply too fast for most mod-cons. The fact that you don't grasp this concept proves that you have blind faith in Taco and will put lipstick on the pig to make their product work.

Rich

There you go again with blind faith . I have no faith except in myself . I explained in my last post that while you settled on speed 2 , the way I use this piece of equipment is with several emitters sized and designed around 1 gpm each . By utilizing a tight reset curve I am and have been operating at a point between speeds 1 & 2 on a regular basis . If this was not possible I would readily suggest something else or some other possibility . Because if I don't , i starve and people don't call me anymore . I do not enjoy the luxuries you do and , this is my job , it's all I do .


Hatteras
Right........you "thought you were aware".

Now that the system is installed, you are denying any involvement.

Classic. Rich McGrath couldn't have been involved with something that doesn't work. That would be impossible.

The only "advice" you offered was to increase the head to slow the flow rate even further (to 1 GPM). I actually tried that to prove that you have no clue and the boiler rammed into HL in 20 seconds.



Rich
I have not denied involvement throughout this entire discussion and I would imagine the folks following are a bit smarter than Hillary voters . You can't have your own , made up facts .
I did say before installation to guarantee 3.6 feet which you told me you had all the hardware to do . The globe valve changed to a butterfly valve , the pd guage you bought and installed which was in place while you ran your tests was one for air , not water . You swore based on readings from that guage that you were indeed at 3.6 feet when in fact you were not . When you finally got the proper guage you were still nowhere near the discussed head and could not attain it with the butterfly valve. Then again you were using 150* water during your tests when the emitters had no chance of shedding anywhere near those BTUs as is demonstrated by your admitted Delta T at which point I suggested you lower the water temp which would in turn increase head . a decrease of 30* would have increased head by approx. 1 foot and you would have seen what I was talking about but as usual you told me as you have done rihgt here in this and other threads that I have no idea what I am talking about . I would add that most of your tests ran past what most would consider a short cycle . This is all documented and I am not the only individual that has had to endure the frustration of your lack of understanding about what water and steam do in the real world .
When the load is less than the minimum capability of the boiler such as the 3,000 BTu zone with 60 feet of radiation that you were testing the fact that it ran smack into high limit is not remarkable but in fact to be expected .

Hatteras
I actually agree with most of the above. I did not completely redesign this house to supply each individual baseboard in parallel with a manifold. That would have entailed a massive reconstruction of the house.

I do not agree that trying to raise the head and lowering the flow rate will help the UFT. In fact, I have proven otherwise.

Rich
While I am sure you think you have proven otherwise and we all know you disagree with me I still stand by the fact that any boiler connected to a circuit not capable of delivering the BTU produced at a given time will certainly hit high limit every time . Your delta is proof of this . It started out at 20 and almost immediately started narrowing while in Delta T mode and more rapidly at your speed 2 setting


Hatteras
I've paid my share of tuition as well. I'm older than you are and, although I have not installed the quantity or the range of systems that you have, I take great pride in what I do and I try to do it very meticulously. This failure to get the two products to work together without lipstick bothers me.

Note however that the system will actually do quite well using fixed speed 2 on the VT. The RWT will be relatively constant at about 120-125F for most of the season and will drop a bit lower (with a narrow DT) at 50 degree ambients.

In the grand scheme of things the system is efficient and the outcome is not all that miserable.

Rich
Yep , your older . I bet you are bothered , i would be . I know the system does quite well on the speed 2 setting . You have said that . Your comment about 120 - 125* RWT being relatively constant is curious . Are you still using a set temp instead of using the ODR or do you have a 5* spread on it ?


Now give Boon his thread back DB Cooper

Rich_49

Zman said:

@Erin Holohan Haskell

At this point I am thinking that there should have a separate category for Hatt and Rich to bicker with each other.

It would be kind of fun, people could post an absolutely futile topic, it could be Delta p vs Delta T or some more productive like what color is the sky, then we could all just watch the magic. Those of us that like watching Nascar just for the crashes can tune in, otherwise it would be back to just heating help.

It would eliminate this senseless high jacking of perfectly good threads. This poor guy is trying to get some solid advise about a simple heat system and it is clogged up with this garbage...

I deal with far to many personality disorders on jobs to want to deal with it here.

As annoying as it may seem Carl . I'll bet that alot was learned by our OP . Sorry to have offended you , also sorry to put my 2 cents in an attempt to really help the Op learn . I've always learned the most by verifying what 2 cantankerous old farts argued about . Sometimes it's good to learn from others' mistakes , it does not cost you anything but some time . Sorry to have offended you . Maybe next time you'll have the decorum to PM Erin instead of embarrassing 2 other users whom offer quite a bit to those looking for help .

Boon , I do apologize .

keyote

Boon i see you found the NON P/S layout,be cautious the manual does not mean the ecm DT or DP pumps when it talks about VS pumps and when it talks about them it means to use VS in a P/S layout controlled by the boiler. if you use a DT or DP ecm it would control itself based on dtp.
This threads a week old but its pretty much a repeat of my thread all month including the Hat and Rich show. The conclusion I got was theres no reason not to follow the straight through diagram and use a ecm pump your emmitters are even better for this than my radiant.

keyote

Boon i would ad do use the webstone flanges and a lot of their very neat stuff. they hay have a flange set that is also a drain and or purge but the neatest part is the isolation valve allows you tto drain from either side say you use it on your indirect pump you can close the valve and dran from the indirect or turn it another way and drain the boiler one version the flanges swivel until tightened so no worries about sweating in place and no worries that pump position is limited by position you need to work it into position from. check out their brochures that explain what they do basically they combine multiple fittings into one for less money and less potential leaks and less work better look more room supply house had better prices

Boon

I already found and purchased some Webstone stuff, including their isolation flanges - disappointed to see they were not domestic. I skipped the flanges with drains because I have other drain valves located much lower than my circs that should be sufficient.

... NON P/S layout ... conclusion I got was theres no reason not to follow the straight through diagram

I'd like to avoid the P/S piping but the heat load is too small - even at 40° outside - in my situation and I'm not convinced there is enough mass in my system. I'll reevaluate after this winter - and wait for you to report back on how your system is performing!

keyote

lol was hoping you would be the guinea pig if you look at the end of my last two threads after all the scaring me they said go ahead its fine done all the time lol. I think there are concerns but they can be mitigated, on a 65 degree day my flow was .5 -.85 and less 2 ft hd on any one zone but the pump will not pump that low so i will have sufficient flow im going to gang all the zones for now and lay out the pipes in a way i could add a buffer and pump if need be
the reason for the drains on the flanges is to not have to drain to service pump because fresh water has oxygen in it and its a hassle

Gordy

keyote said:

lol was hoping you would be the guinea pig if you look at the end of my last two threads after all the scaring me they said go ahead its fine done all the time lol. I think there are concerns but they can be mitigated, on a 65 degree day my flow was .5 -.85 and less 2 ft hd on any one zone but the pump will not pump that low so i will have sufficient flow im going to gang all the zones for now and lay out the pipes in a way i could add a buffer and pump if need be
the reason for the drains on the flanges is to not have to drain to service pump because fresh water has oxygen in it and its a hassle

Scaring you? Wow. Try to educate........

Now all of the sudden you are a fluent hydronisist.

By the way how much education did it take to convince you to combine zones?

How many people use their heat on a 65* day? Keep getting scared you have a long ways to go.

keyote

Come on Gordy a little levity, cant the apprentice gripe a bit about being sent to the fitter for a bucket of steam and a skyhook?
The 'scare' was well worth knowing what the possibilities are and learning more about hydronics,which allowed me to intelligently consider if the zoning was worth what was needed to make it work [a buffer, a second pump, P/S ].
I dont know. loop cad was set up default at 17 degrees and 70 degrees, NYC law requires 68 degrees be provided 6 am -10 pm. So I lopped off 5 degrees to conservatively estimate worst case scenario of lowest calls, because of the boiler flashing from low flow, or HL lockouts, I was warned about if I used the non P/S diagrams in the boiler books. So I spent a very profitable month or two exploring ways to work around that.And then I was told I was over thinking it and my original plan was done all the time that even using the TT with the higher modulation was done all the time.And I thought to save Boon some worry.
Gordy let me be perfectly clear I don't regret a minute of learning the possibilities to be careful about, its exactly how I would educate someone about embarking on a potentially dangerous DIY project, I understand those were real concerns that are still quite possible under circumstances difficult to predict in advance particularly over the internet. I would not want to be deciding how to proceed with piping this boiler without being cognizant of these possibilities, and understanding them, because I could not intelligently calculate the risk reward of how to proceed and would not be able to understand what is happening if it turns out my system doesn't want to co operate with my minimalist approach. I am immensely grateful to Siegy Dan and Particularly you, but also Hotrod Rich Hat Zman SWEI and all the others that have been so patient. This is a tremendous service both for the homeowner with a little problem and Guys like me and Boon who are determined to continue the American tradition of doing it ourselves.I could write an essay on how important all your work here and elsewhere is and I apologize again that my personality is such that it has not been plain at times how I feel. My complaints about the radiant industry were aimed at the type of marketing that tries to sell ready made boiler rooms, internet system design or full color spreads like warmboards new campaign of radiant in a box, and the green building types who although usually engineers who know better hype these scumbags and DIY radiant in general. I know you know who I am talking about, and apologize you all misunderstood who i meant. I am well aware you guys are giving away for free work you could be paid for and as a HVAC pro myself Im familiar with the feeling of a guy [often a plumber or fitter BTW] who asks me "can I just add a grill to my dinning room with some flex and HD fittings" then gets impatient when i launch into "it depends..."
What are you going to do? Personally if hes arguing hes listening and its worth my time to keep explaining, because I want men to learn to do things themselves and do them well. I know you guys do to, and Im immensely grateful. So no I dont for a second wish you had replied immediately "sure go ahead if its in the boiler manual it'll be fine", I dont even think thats a true statement, or that you guys are even now quite saying that, But now Im fully [well better at least] informed.
And you know what you're right Im not qualified to tell boon that though his systems got a lower load the higher mass and SWT with radiators make it a better candidate than mine to do what he and I would ideally like to do. In fact nothing annoys me more than people on the internet that feel they are compelled to answer questions they know nothing about. So Boon I take it back.