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Why,in Northeastern Wi.,cant i find a person to install old style cast iron heat radiator system??

CharleysHorse
CharleysHorse Member Posts: 11
edited June 2016 in Radiant Heating
This is a big question,for a small 600 sq ft cabin.Its Lp country out where i live,and i really dont want a forced airfurnace setup,as my ears,nose bleeds, being so dry with Lp,& electric baseboard..
Im currently rebuilding this cabin,due to an electrical fire in dec.2015..Each and every Hvac /heating person i have talked to..doesnt want to put in the system i want..Whats the problem?Im open for ideas on a heating system..but its got to b frugal in costs..my god,we are only talking 600sq ft.! Any one ??

Comments

  • Firecontrol933
    Firecontrol933 Member Posts: 73
    Just a guess, but when you combine cast iron radiation and frugal in the same sentence, that might be why no one wants to do it.

    Maybe a more complete description of what you want would help myself or others to figure out why they are saying no.
    Paul S_3GW
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,037
    Try Karl at Northwind in Stevens Pointhttp://www.northwindre.com
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    CharleysHorse
  • CharleysHorse
    CharleysHorse Member Posts: 11
    edited June 2016
    I'm not even disclosing the word "frugal" upon my discussions with candidates that come to look over the cabin..modest ,in terms of the system itself,has been the term.Like I said,I'm always open to other ideas for this system,as i will.be first to admit,im not experienced in this field.However,i do have medical circumstances such as MS,of which an forced air system via Lp,or electric baseboard,is irratating to my skin/body.
  • CharleysHorse
    CharleysHorse Member Posts: 11
    ;) Thanks HotRod i'll keep that in contacts list!
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,975
    Mmmm steam with cast iron radiators.
    Drain the boiler before you leave and it's winter proofed.

    @Steamhead ??
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 1,712
    If you're rebuilding I presume you'll insulate and seal. Why not look into electric ceiling radiant? Place will be comfortable at lower temperature. Helps a little concerning shrivelled sinus.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    With 600 square feet you're looking at a design day heat loss under 12,000 BTU/hr. The smallest gas boiler you can buy will have 3-5 times that capacity. What are your electric and LPG rates like? Does the cabin have any passive solar features? How often will it be occupied?
    CharleysHorsePaul S_3
  • CharleysHorse
    CharleysHorse Member Posts: 11
    edited June 2016

    Thanks everybody for your input..We are trying to stay away from electric,as the main source of heating..Im a ham radio guy,and our monthly electric bill is enough .Currently all electric is shut down,as we have to rewire whole place,and relocate an updated circuit breaker box(the old glass fused box was located right next to shower in bathroom:open_mouth: ,i was even wondering about an RV sized furnace,but i dread my skin being dryed out like a piece of leather..nothing in terms of solar stuff..yet...we plan on staying at the place year round once everything is said and done.The floor is wooden,with very small,tight fitting crawl space underneath,combination of sand and dirt floor ,or groundnforcrawl space..place is all framed out inside,and in process of putting moisture barrier over the logs inside,and durovent rafter panels..got the ridge vent kit for the roof,but i can only do so much till the ol'body retreats and tells me its time to rest.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Is the the cabin oriented so that it faces south, or can it be when you rebuild? Passive solar design adds almost nothing to your labor and materials cost and has a huge impact on both comfort and fuel bills.

    If you want radiators, a small electric boiler could be a good fit there. An gas-fired boiler will need a buffer tank to keep it happy in such a small house. The two of them will require ~10x as much space as the electric boiler will.
  • CharleysHorse
    CharleysHorse Member Posts: 11
    edited June 2016

    The cabin faces west/ southwest really...the guys that "HotRod" suggested,NorthWind-Stevens Point,recommended pensotti panel radiators,powered via Lp hot water heater?We lost everything on the inside,excluding the back porch ,from the fire..its an 105 yr old log cabin.
    Rich_49
  • Gilmorrie
    Gilmorrie Member Posts: 146
    edited June 2016
    600 sq ft? That's not a cabin as much as a large room. You can't afford to install hot-water heat, no matter the fuel. How many days is the heat being run? Just upgrade the wiring and put in electric baseboard heat.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    A mini-split could seriously rock there. The better models have credible performance at -15°F.
    Steve Minnich
  • CharleysHorse
    CharleysHorse Member Posts: 11
    edited June 2016
    One large living area(where we sleep,eat,watch tv),tiny kitchen,tiny bathroom,and a back porch....SWEI,are you agreeing with what the guys at NorthWind suggested,the pensotti panel radiators via Lp water heater?Because im seriously thinking of paying more for them to trek north to do the install.As i mentioned before,i have medical issues,and am against an electric baseboard system,as well as a forced air system,because of this,i seek other alternatives..and my hobby,that i enjoy,shortwave radio,contributes enough to WPS as it is.
  • Firecontrol933
    Firecontrol933 Member Posts: 73
    What county is the cabin located in. I work out of Vilas and we do hydronic systems.
  • CharleysHorse
    CharleysHorse Member Posts: 11
    Marinette County.Crivitz address,but located more towards Mountain,Wi
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    edited June 2016
    A tank-type water heater can be made to work, but unless you buy a fairly pricey one it will waste a LOT of LPG.

    Reducing your electric bill while raising your LPG bill may not pay off, but it might. Again, what are the respective costs of each?

    A properly sized mini-split will not dry out your skin. It won't be as comfortable as properly installed radiant, but it does provide summer cooling.
    Gordy
  • CharleysHorse
    CharleysHorse Member Posts: 11
    edited June 2016
    Electric [email protected] $0.9950 per KwH,and Lp rates in dollars per [email protected] 1.170.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    That gives you the following costs per million BTU's delivered:

    80% LPG appliance $16.01
    95% LPG appliance $13.48
    Electric resistance $29.76
    Heatpump (average COP of 3) $9.72
    Heatpump (average COP of 4) $7.29
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    Also a heat pump can cool. Northern Wisconsin does have those days of cooling needs. For such a small space I would think a mini split would not give the same conditioning effect of FA furnace.
  • Firecontrol933
    Firecontrol933 Member Posts: 73
    That is too far for us to go.

    Have you any experience with radiant heat and how you react to that? Putting radiant tubing into the floor system would give you great comfort throughout the entire building. It also could be used with the LP water heater source. It can usually take lower temperature water supplied to it than the radiators for the same comfort level.

    Just thinking out loud.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    Also one bill, and no tank unless there are LP needs for other appliances. The next question would be electricity reliability, however a tiny rocket stove would heat the space in an emergency.
  • rick in Alaska
    rick in Alaska Member Posts: 1,242
    Wow! I dream of those utility rates. Currently .022 per kilowatt and about $369 for l.p..
    I would think a direct vented gas heater to save on stack losses tied to a flat plate heat exchanger for the heat would be good way to go for the size.
    Rick
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    .12 that's mine. I dream of far less.
  • rick in Alaska
    rick in Alaska Member Posts: 1,242
    Oops...... meant .22 With fees anyway. I think base is like 18 cents. I just heard where some towns in the interior that run off diesel generators, and the fuel has to be either barged in or flown in, are running as much as .60 per kw. They are finally doing some wind generation, but that is also costly to install and maintain. Sometimes I wish I still lived in eastern Washington next to the nuclear plants where my electric rate was running at .035. ( no typo here). Everything was electric.
    Rick
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 1,712
    I still say that if starting from scratch electric ceiling radiant can be quite economical. Especially with programmable control. Just wear warm footwear when your legs are under a table. You can also skip areas over furniture where nobody will stand. That way you can enjoy more radiant at lower overall temperature.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    Actually shadowing is minimal
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,037
    The Bradford White Combi 2 is ideal for small applications like this. I believe it is available as a standard tank and a power, side vent version.

    DHW from the tank, radiant or hydronic from the coil inside.

    You could use radiant floor, ceiling, wall, panel rads or any combination of.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • MikeSpeed6030
    MikeSpeed6030 Member Posts: 69
    I assume that your cabin in unoccupied for long stretches in the winter? Any heating system with water in it will be subject to freezing - unless you add antifreeze, which is something best to avoid.
  • CharleysHorse
    CharleysHorse Member Posts: 11
    edited June 2016
    Actually,we planned on staying here year round,prior to fire .This is likely the place where I'll pass..i haven't done any research on electric ceiling radiant systems..but am trying to stay away from electric as I would prefer to enjoy my hobby of shortwave radio,and that contributes enough to electric bill..along with me using old style incadescent bulbs,due to the fact that LEDs and CFLs are an EMF interference nightmare for a radio operator.
  • Big-D
    Big-D Member Posts: 21
    Just checked that you are most likely located in Oconto Electric Co-ops service territory http://ocontoelectric.com/rates/
    Their web page shows an off peak electric rate of $.049/kWh. This is $14.36/million BTU or equivalent to appx. $1.19/gallon LP.
    Need an electric boiler and add a little LP fireplace/stove for cozy aesthetic backup. Perfect combo. LP Gas will rise with a vengeance very soon. Good luck

  • CharleysHorse
    CharleysHorse Member Posts: 11
    edited June 2016
    ;) No,im not in Oconto County,and the rates i disclosed were rates we were paying in December,prior to fire.