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Onhand spares for mod-con....

NY_Rob
NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
This summer we will be updating our 1960’s CI boiler with a HTP UFT-80W mod con.
The old boiler used very common parts carried by pretty much every burner tech on his truck and always in stock in at local supply houses- I was never really concerned about ready replacements as even Home Depot stocked my Honeywell aquastat and 007 circulators, and the rest of the boiler is pretty much bullet proof.

Going forward, I’m a little concerned with ready replacement parts availability for the new tech boilers.
Blackman Plumbing Supply (14 locations on Long Island) is the local distributor for HTP and stocks some parts, but nobody stocks everything and I’d be shocked if any of the local techs carry anything on their trucks for HTP mod cons.

With that in mind, are there any commonly replaced spare parts that I could keep on hand at home for the new boiler that would keep us up and running in most situations next winter?
Some HTP parts are reasonably priced and I’d have no problem ordering them as spares … Ignition Rod , Low Water Cutoff sensor , Flame Sensor , CH Supply Temp Sensor , etc… other are more expensive…. Main Control Board and Display Panel and would be prohibitively expensive to keep as a spares as a homeowner.

I’m hoping there is some kind of consensus among field service techs who have experience with modern mod-cons as to which parts seem to fail more than others and which would be worth having at home as spares.

Thanks in advance, any guidance would be appreciated!
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Comments

  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,450
    Blackman doesn't stock that boiler, so I doubt they will stock parts. HTP doesn't manufacture it either, it's a rebadge
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
    Paul S_3
  • 4Johnpipe
    4Johnpipe Member Posts: 477
    The UFT is too new to no for sure. The flame sensor ignition assembly is good to have. The rep should be able to order it in a day. The unit u
    LANGAN'S PLUMBING & HEATING LLC
    Considerate People, Considerate Service, Consider It Done!
    732-751-1560
    email: [email protected]
    www.langansplumbing.com
  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,755
    I think it's a good idea that a contractor has a complete parts replacement kit for makes and models of mod cons they regularly sell. It's impossible to do it for all but it should be one of the questions you ask - "If my new boiler fails at 11:30 at night and it's 5 degrees outside, how quickly will I have the needed part?" Most supply houses have a 24 hour "open up" service at a nominal fee for replacement parts too.
    Steve Minnich
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    [email protected]
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    Who makes the UFT?
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 16,286
    Looks like the Laars Mascot FT is the same boiler. I suspect many parts would cross over

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    NY_Rob
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    That's troubling......They're not even doing there own manufacturing. How many times do they have to transfer your phone call, if you have a problem?
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 3,988
    This is where your supplyhouse needs to step up. I would not consider installing this if the SH didn't have the parts on the shelf.
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,450
    It's Korean. Noritz sells a version also
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    The HTP UFT-80W is actually made in Korea by Kiturami.
    As far as can be determined it's parts are made there, it's partially assembled there and then "finished" over here by HTP and others.

    The Kiturami "Homsys" unit is imported, "finished", rebadged and sold in the states as under the following names:
    HTP
    Westinghouse
    Noritz
    Larrs
    Possibly others too...






    They are all the same unit, even the install manuals use the same part numbers across all the different brand names.
    If you call Westinghouse Tech Support- you get the HTP support guys "Alex", etc... if you press them on the point- they tell you they support both brands, not just HTP.

    That's the world today, it's complicated and products are globally sourced not just US based. It's been this way for years in computers, phones, automobiles, outboard motors, air conditioners, etc... now it's happening in heating appliances.

    I'm going to call the local supply house that is an authorized HTP dealer and see what they actually stock in the way of parts for the HTP UFT-80W. They had told me they can order any HTP product or part, but it's to be determined as to what they actually have on hand locally.








  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,450
    It's tough getting parts for the established brands on LI !
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  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    It's one thing, to take YOUR design, and have it manufactured offshore. It's another to take someone else's design, and stick your name on it. I know...nothing is manufactured here anymore, but isn't that sad.
    Robert O'Brien
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    Agreed Robert!

    I reached out to Blackman Supply, my rep suggested I compile and email him a list of potential spares I'd like to keep on hand along with their HTP part numbers and he'll see if he stocks any of the parts vs. ordering from HTP.

    So far I came up with....

    Air Pressure Switch
    Ignition Transformer
    Ignition Rod
    Exhaust Temperature Sensor
    CH Supply Temperature Sensor
    Low Water Level Detection Sensor
    Flame Sensor
    CH Return Sensor

    Added up they amount to about what you would spend for a family of four at a mid-level restaurant (or party of 2 at a NYC restaurant :o ), so that's not too bad as far as peace of mind "insurance" goes..
  • 4Johnpipe
    4Johnpipe Member Posts: 477
    edited May 2016
    Correction...The UFT heat exchanger is made by Kiturami. In fact there is a proprietary additional design to the heat ex that only HTP uses. The patented venturi allowing 10:1 turn down is also HTP only. I have seen the Laars they do not have top and bottom S & R tapping either like the UFT.
    Might want to remember that most mod con boilers have a non proprietary heat ex line of product available.
    LANGAN'S PLUMBING & HEATING LLC
    Considerate People, Considerate Service, Consider It Done!
    732-751-1560
    email: [email protected]
    www.langansplumbing.com
    Rich_49
  • John Mills_5
    John Mills_5 Member Posts: 935
    I hate stocking a lot of OEM parts as they keep changing. Soon as I order a board for stock it seems to be changed. And if you don't use it, eventually you'll be throwing it away. Best for a dealer is to buy from a supply house who stocks parts.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    ^ Thanks John,

    From researching and examining the actual install manuals- I can't speak for the other brands, but at least the Westinghouse seems to be a 100% clone of the HTP as it's parts (and part numbers) are identical as is the 10:1 turndown to the HTP UFT. When you call the Westinghouse 800 support number listed in the Westinghouse install Manual- you get the HTP phone support crew up in MA. I even traced the Westinghouse 800 support phone number back... it shows up as 272 Duchaine Blvd, New Bedford, MA 02745.. same as HTP's address.

    I guess Westinghouse has some sort of deal with HTP to finish, rebadge and support the Westinghouse UFT boilers.
  • 4Johnpipe
    4Johnpipe Member Posts: 477
    Yes Westinghouse is HTP sold direct. Not really fond of this set up. It is what it is though...
    LANGAN'S PLUMBING & HEATING LLC
    Considerate People, Considerate Service, Consider It Done!
    732-751-1560
    email: [email protected]
    www.langansplumbing.com
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    ^ and that Westinghouse you can order direct via quite a few different websites where the HTP seems to be more or less local supply house only.
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,692
    The Westinghouse branded stuff ha s major rep support issues . I would go with the HTP only . Gas venturi on the HTP UFT is totally different than on others Kiturami stuff .

    This boiler was researched for quite a long time and also how to build it here to compete with Navien , Rinnai , others . Could not be done here , not a manufacturer problem as much of a , cannot do it here problem . Kiturami is probably the best man in S Korea , better than Navien . If you don't like the UFT , buy the Navien , plenty of parts available for that since they have beer a required item , not a good thing guys . In case you did not know , I see boat loads of crates of controls and parts from all over the world in all the US manufacturers facilities , it is nothing new .

    You want the HTP boiler that is made in America, buy the EFT . The real shame is that what has become necessary for a living wage here makes it impossible to make anything price point . You should call your congressman on your foreign made cellphone , or e mail him on your foreign made computer and complain . Then tonight you can sit in front of your foreign made Television and watch whatever it is you watch and say , I have made it . Right after you drive home in your more than likely foreign made vehicle .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    It's getting harder and harder to determine what's made here or there as many things are now truly globally sourced:

    The Toyota Camry’s “total domestic content” measures 78.5%, while the Ford Fusion measures 62.5% and the Chevrolet SS musters just 15.5%.
    Go figure....
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    " The real shame is that what has become necessary for a living wage here makes it impossible to make anything price point".

    It's done to maximize profits, and they are not paying a "living wage" to Korean workers either. It is one source of income, as it would be for an American worker. I don't blame them, they are doing what the laws says they can do. It's just a sad commentary on American industry, in general. If they could pay an American worker $3 an hour, and pay a Korean worker the equivalent of $2 an hour, it would still be made in Korea.
  • NYplumber
    NYplumber Member Posts: 503
    After calculating the cost of the parts including a control board you should just spend the money on adding a furnace to your existing central air or invest in a wood/pellet stove. Zero down time on a switch over is a plus too.
    :NYplumber:
    RPK
  • tim smith
    tim smith Member Posts: 2,460
    Flame Rod, igniter, flue sensor, maybe 1 water temp sensor for supply/return as they are very likely same but verify. Burner and top plate gasket. Control board usually pretty reliable but maybe after few years order a blower?
    I would vote for Lochinvar WHN boiler if good supply house for them there. Been really solid boiler for last 6 yrs for us. Probably have 50+ installed and not one blower or control replaced except for one doa board issue at startup.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    edited May 2016
    Thanks Tim,

    I initially looked in to the Lochinvar WHN's, they have some great premium features like individual nite time setback for both space heating and DHW which I really liked. But, the smallest model (80K BTU) with it's 5:1 turndown only modulated down to 16K BTU which is too much for my three zones if they run individually vs. two or three zones calling for heat at the same time.
    IIRC the WHN also required P/S piping which I wasn't too thrilled about either...
  • 4Johnpipe
    4Johnpipe Member Posts: 477
    LANGAN'S PLUMBING & HEATING LLC
    Considerate People, Considerate Service, Consider It Done!
    732-751-1560
    email: [email protected]
    www.langansplumbing.com
  • rick in Alaska
    rick in Alaska Member Posts: 1,362
    KHN up and running with direct piping ,after a couple of glitches. Bad design on the inlet tube intake fitting allowed it to crack, but they got me the new one right away and it is up and running. Currently running at 10% fire with these temperatures.
    I haven't had time to do complete set up yet, but so far owner loves the quietness of it, and I love the 10%!
    Rick
  • rick in Alaska
    rick in Alaska Member Posts: 1,362
    At this time, just the 15-58 that came with it. Owner out of money and had to move in, so had to just get it running. Still hoping to get a 0-10 dc pump on it to see how it does. Haven't even had time to set it up yet. Maybe on Tuesday. Will let you know what it does.
    Rick
  • rick in Alaska
    rick in Alaska Member Posts: 1,362
    House only needs 29k. As of the other day on speed 2, it was running a delta of 17, but everything was still coming up to temperature. I might be able to get back today for a quick look to see how things are doing, if I can get my gas furnace installation done. Did I say furnace out loud? dang. Some people like them though, and I don't mind changing them out.
    Rick
    kcopp
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,450
    edited May 2016
    tim smith had the best advice, those are things most likely to be needed. Given the price point, I don't believe it's unreasonable to expect below average reliability. Blackman doesn't stock that model boiler so expecting any parts inventory is false hope. Parts on the most popular mod/cons are tough to come by on LI.
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,450

    Given the price point, I don't believe it's unreasonable to expect below average reliability.

    A question:

    Do you get better reliability with a BMW as compared to a Hyundai? Which one has the better warranty?

    Do you get better reliability with a Sub-Zero refrigerator as compared to a Whirlpool?

    Do you get better reliability with a Dyson vacuum cleaner as compared to a Hoover?


    I do agree that there are products where the extra expense might be worth the coin. EK could be considered in that category. But, a higher price does not necessarily result in a more durable product.
    Not always, yet the biggest Korean boiler manufacturer seems to get poor reviews and this one is different? It may very well be but I'll let someone else go first.
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  • MikeSpeed6030
    MikeSpeed6030 Member Posts: 69
    Westinghouse is essentially non-existent. The Westinghouse name is licensed out to anybody who pays a fee. (An exception is the nuclear power operation, which is continues as Westinghouse Electric Corporation.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westinghouse_Licensing_Corporation
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 381
    NYplumber said:

    After calculating the cost of the parts including a control board you should just spend the money on adding a furnace to your existing central air ...

    For new construction that will already include both hydronic heating and central air conditioning, this sounds like a smart approach. In more rigorous climates, it might even be a way to enjoy radiant comfort most of the time and supplement that source with forced air only when needed on the very coldest days.

    One key to making this "piggy back on A/C" setup affordable would be ability to obtain/install a simple, relatively reliable 80% furnace. I can't find anything on line that indicates the regulations which were supposed to prohibit them in northern states have taken effect, or are scheduled to. Am I missing something? Thanks in advance.

  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,306
    There is a lot to said for keeping things simple. Maybe we would be better off spending money on insulating and tightening up a buildings envelope before installing 95% systems.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
    Hatterasguy
  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,755
    @BobC - Because that's not sexy enough for most people. It's hard to show off insulation to your family and friends. My wife and I recently bought a new home and insulation upgrades were the very first things we did.
    Steve Minnich
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    [email protected]
    Rich_49
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    It's not always just about the efficiency in moving to a mod-con... in my case I was especially interested in new safety features and direct venting vs. standard atmospheric venting on my circa 1964 CI boiler.

    I've been in my current house for 26 years- we never had an issue with venting between the boiler chimney and the fireplace chimney. But, during a Feb 2016 snowstorm with 50mph gusts a unique condition formed where the downwind boiler chimney pulled so much draft it caused a reverse draft in the first floor fireplace chimney (that still had some glowing embers from the fire we enjoying earlier that evening) that set off our basement CO alarm at 2am... and then the upstairs CO alarm at 3am (even with the boiler shut off after the 2am basement CO alarm sounded off).
    Mind you this happened between 2-3am during a raging blizzard that dumped 24" of snow on us overnight. Yeah, it was a lot of fun opening windows (with the boiler off) at 2-3am during a blizzard with 50mph gusts! I venture that none of us got any sleep the rest of the night after 2am!
    Once you go through a frightening and potentially deadly situation like that- if you have a chance to change things so it won't ever happen again... you seriously consider making those changes. FWIW- our old CI boiler was the original unit that was installed when the house was built in 1964.

    Once I started looking at direct venting to abandon/seal off the old boiler chimney- the mod-con seem like the best solution vs. power vent cast iron, but not just because of the high efficiency...
    In addition to the direct venting feature, the new mod-con has many advanced safety features including a Gas Leak Detection Sensor (Detects Natural Gas or Propane), Optical Flame Sensor, Burner Plate High Limit, Water Temperature High Limit Sensor, Freeze Protection, Exhaust Temperature High Limit Sensor, Blocked Flue Switch, Condensate Switch, and Built-In Low Water Cut-Off Probe.
    My old boiler had none of the above, so it's a major safety upgrade too- and it just happens to be much more efficient than my old CI atmospheric boiler.
  • bob_46
    bob_46 Member Posts: 813
    The mod con has all those safeties because it needs them, your old boiler doesn't. The fireplace problem was because the fireplace safety went to bed.
    bob
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    edited June 2016
    ...
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,692
    Just because your old boiler does not need them does not mean they are not good ideas Bob . Ask anyone who has been burned , maimed or killed in an accidental occurrence , well you can ask 2 of those folks .
    Of course the high exhaust temp safety will do no good , it would shut the unit down before it could reach high limit and allow for those stack losses while the unit is off and running .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • bob_46
    bob_46 Member Posts: 813
    The OP is obviously trying to talk himself into a mod con. If that is what he wants that is what he should have. I just found it ironic that he's concerned about the safeties on a 52 year old boiler that's trouble free and yet he can go to bed without the fire being out and the damper closed in his fire place. He should probably install an optical flame sensor and a rollout switch on his fireplace.
    bob
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    @bob,
    We threw the last log on the fire around 10pm IIRC, by the time we went to bed at midnight- we couldn't see any glowing embers any longer.. not even any visible smoke from the remaining wood. At that point we closed the glass fireplace doors- and left the flue damper open.. we usually close it the next morning.

    Regarding the 50+ yo CI boiler... it had some issues. By far the most serious was a small CO leak somewhere in the back of the boiler. While it was firing the leaking CO was getting pulled directly up into the draft hood and not spreading around the basement, but occasionally if the boiler short-cycled my Sensorcon Inspector would register 12-15ppm CO in the basement for a min or two. When I recently pulled that boiler out (I had to do it in sections because it was too heavy to remove fully assembled) I found the gasket that sealed the three sections together had completely deteriorated between two of the sections in the rear- which accounted for the CO leak. That old boiler also had no rollout switch, no spill switch, or even a vent damper. To say it wasn't up to modern safety standards was a gross understatement. It was time for it to go... and I wanted to go with a sealed combustion unit to help prevent reverse drafting between the two chimes in the future.
  • Adolfo2
    Adolfo2 Member Posts: 32
    NY_Rob said:

    This summer we will be updating our 1960’s CI boiler with a HTP UFT-80W mod con.
    The old boiler used very common parts carried by pretty much every burner tech on his truck and always in stock in at local supply houses- I was never really concerned about ready replacements as even Home Depot stocked my Honeywell aquastat and 007 circulators, and the rest of the boiler is pretty much bullet proof.

    Going forward, I’m a little concerned with ready replacement parts availability for the new tech boilers.
    Blackman Plumbing Supply (14 locations on Long Island) is the local distributor for HTP and stocks some parts, but nobody stocks everything and I’d be shocked if any of the local techs carry anything on their trucks for HTP mod cons.

    With that in mind, are there any commonly replaced spare parts that I could keep on hand at home for the new boiler that would keep us up and running in most situations next winter?
    Some HTP parts are reasonably priced and I’d have no problem ordering them as spares … Ignition Rod , Low Water Cutoff sensor , Flame Sensor , CH Supply Temp Sensor , etc… other are more expensive…. Main Control Board and Display Panel and would be prohibitively expensive to keep as a spares as a homeowner.

    I’m hoping there is some kind of consensus among field service techs who have experience with modern mod-cons as to which parts seem to fail more than others and which would be worth having at home as spares.

    Thanks in advance, any guidance would be appreciated!

    My concerns exactly! I've picked up many spares on eBay for my Lochinvar Knight at a very reasonable price over the past few years.
    I entered the part numbers in eBay and had it automatically search 24/7 and notify me when something popped up. I've purchased a system board, gas valve, blower, etc at less than 50% of the wholesale cost.