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Turbotorch swirl tip question

ChrisJ
ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,974
I'm using my turbo torch for sweating right now and it's been a while but it seems like I can't have the hose above the nozzle, is this a problem with this type of torch?

There's times I want my tip oriented like that and the torch starts complaining, yellow flame, etc.

At first I thought my tank was running out but as long as the hose is level to or below the tip it runs fine?
Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
Paul S_3
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Comments

  • Paul S_3
    Paul S_3 Member Posts: 1,257
    edited April 2016
    Normal....this happens to me too when i braze or solder....i just find a way to reconfigure the torch so the hose is below the tip....
    ASM Mechanical Company
    Located in Staten Island NY
    Servicing all 5 boroughs of NYC.
    347-692-4777
    [email protected]
    ASMHVACNYC.COM
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/asm-mechanical-company
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,974
    Paul S said:

    Normal....this happens to me too when i braze or solder....i just find a way to reconfigure the torch so the hose is below the tip....

    Strange,
    Do you recall if Victor mentions anything about this in the manual? I couldn't find mine.

    It is amazing how much nicer this torch is than a cheapy Bernzomatic I have at home. I keep this at my parent's house where I work on my refrigerators and we're installing a filer and recirculating hot water right now.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 6,989
    Any chance the liner in to hose is collapsing slightly when you turn a hard radius? I had that happen, it looked fine but the problem went away when I replaced the hose.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    rick in Alaska
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,974
    Zman said:

    Any chance the liner in to hose is collapsing slightly when you turn a hard radius? I had that happen, it looked fine but the problem went away when I replaced the hose.

    I doubt it.
    It's barely been used since 2013 and I didn't really have any sharp bends in it. Was just trying to keep the heat off of something.

    After using it more I suspect the tank is running out sadly. The gauge was pointing to the last symbol next to empty. I'm not sure how accurate that is, but I did have to increase the regulator some as I was going.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,974
    I need to flip my regulator over as well.
    I mounted it like this because I think I saw others doing it but it really blows if you want to read it.


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • aircooled81
    aircooled81 Member Posts: 197
    I haven't seen my torch do that, but i'd agree with the others, fuel supply going low.
    Just remonders for acetelyne...
    Only open that tank 1/4 to 3/4 turn.
    Acetelyne has a stabalizer inside, opening the valve too much causes the stabalizer to leave. Never use above 15psi and dont use more than 1/7th withdraw rate of the total cuft.

    Nice rig btw,

    ChrisJ
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,837
    Does the tip "rattle" when you shake it? It sounds like you may have dropped a ball of solder into the tip, and when the tip is facing down, the ball of solder is affecting its operation. Not a whole lot you can do. I have heated the tip (carefully) with another tip and give it a fling to dislodge the ball. It happens to the best of us.

    If a person is following the "rules" and keeping the flame moving around the joint (NEVER hold the flame in one spot for more than 1 second) the chances of getting a ball in the tip are excellent. It happens.

    The other thing that will affect it is the exhaust being drawn back into the air/fuel mixing inlet, but your hand will, or should be burning before that is an issue...

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,974
    edited May 2016

    Does the tip "rattle" when you shake it? It sounds like you may have dropped a ball of solder into the tip, and when the tip is facing down, the ball of solder is affecting its operation. Not a whole lot you can do. I have heated the tip (carefully) with another tip and give it a fling to dislodge the ball. It happens to the best of us.

    If a person is following the "rules" and keeping the flame moving around the joint (NEVER hold the flame in one spot for more than 1 second) the chances of getting a ball in the tip are excellent. It happens.

    The other thing that will affect it is the exhaust being drawn back into the air/fuel mixing inlet, but your hand will, or should be burning before that is an issue...

    ME

    No sir, no rattling.

    Also, is it just me, or does this type of torch cause ugly solder joints when using soft solder? I swear my Bernzomatic MAPP torch results in much nicer joints.

    I was using a #2 swirl tip for 1/2" pipe and certainly not overheating the joints, it just seemed like the solder didn't want to flow as nice. I bought this for brazing, but used it for some plumbing work over the weekend.

    I'm probably just imagining it, but it seemed like none of my joints came out as nice as normal.

    Here's an example of some joints I did using my cheap Bernzomatic a while back. Very good flow, little wasted solder. With the #2 Swirltip on the turbo torch it seemed like I had a ton of wasted solder, like it just didn't flow as nice. My only guess is perhaps heating a joint fast and pulling the torch away to control your heat isn't as good as a slower torch and keeping the heat on it. But I always make sure my solder keeps flowing after I remove the heat.

    It was probably just me.






    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Paul S_3
    Paul S_3 Member Posts: 1,257
    @ChrisJ what are you soldering....if your soldering low lead brass theres a different way to heat pipe and fittings
    ASM Mechanical Company
    Located in Staten Island NY
    Servicing all 5 boroughs of NYC.
    347-692-4777
    [email protected]
    ASMHVACNYC.COM
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/asm-mechanical-company
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,974
    Paul S said:

    @ChrisJ what are you soldering....if your soldering low lead brass theres a different way to heat pipe and fittings

    Standard plumbing, 1/2" copper.
    There was some brass which is the modern "lead free" brass.

    What's the different way?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Paul S_3
    Paul S_3 Member Posts: 1,257
    I believe the brass heats up quicker than the copper.....so you have to apply heat to the actual pipe ....to have even heat distribution between the brass and copper....different than the traditional heating the fitting only way.....@hotrod shows a demonstration in one of his caleffi videos
    ASM Mechanical Company
    Located in Staten Island NY
    Servicing all 5 boroughs of NYC.
    347-692-4777
    [email protected]
    ASMHVACNYC.COM
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/asm-mechanical-company
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,974
    edited May 2016
    Paul S said:

    I believe the brass heats up quicker than the copper.....so you have to apply heat to the actual pipe ....to have even heat distribution between the brass and copper....different than the traditional heating the fitting only way.....@hotrod shows a demonstration in one of his caleffi videos

    The way I've always done it is I clean the pipe and fitting with emery paper, wipe with dry rag, apply minimal flux to pipe and fitting, assemble joint and wipe excess flux off. The amount of flux I use is just enough to leave a glossy film on the copper.

    Then with the valve (if it's a valve) 3/4 open, I heat the pipe and when I'm almost hot enough heat the valve and flow the solder in. I pull the torch away as I'm feeding the solder and as long as it keeps flowing for a bit I call the joint good. I flick any drips away just before it solidifies.


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • bob_46
    bob_46 Member Posts: 813
    Chris, get yourself a Victor s-4 sof-flame tip I think you will find it better for soldering. Never use an acetylene tank laying down, some of the acetone will come out. The B-tank (Buick) and MC-tank (motorcycle) were originated by the Prest-O-Lite Co. for headlights. When I started in the trade B-tanks had the valve offset to one side, later they moved them to the center. They were offset so that when you laid them on the running-board you oriented the valve to the high side so the acetone doesn't come out.
    bob
    ChrisJ
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 2,925
    Amazing! And to think, you can't sell a car without crumple zones any more. :wink:
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,974
    ratio said:

    Amazing! And to think, you can't sell a car without crumple zones any more. :wink:

    Explain?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,974
    bob said:

    For the doubters.

    Not a doubter here.
    Though I thought the B tank was for a Bus but either's possible.


    Is it safe to transport a modern B tank laying down? They always say never ever lay them down but it's a major pain in my tiny car to transport it safely standing up. Laying down I could easily anchor it.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 2,925
    @ChrisJ, if I told someone I wanted to mount a bottle of acetylene in my car to light the headlights, the safety police would call the safety SWAT team. I'd probably have to go through some kind of sensitivity training too. :smile: (I was also poking fun at that other thread. :smile::smile: )

    But it's amazing to know the history of things like this. I remember seeing a B tank with an offset valve, I remember thinking that was a pretty stoopid idea. Makes more sense now.

    To the OP, it's my opinion that you are (were?) sucking acetone up due to a low bottle. Held upright, the small amount of acetone stays in the hose, upside down they end up in the flame. I'd expect it to get worse as the bottle is used, = more acetone leaving the bottle. If it goes away with a new bottle, that has to be what you were seeing.

    Then again, I'm just a washed up electrician. I could be wrong, it's happened before.

    ChrisJ
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,033
    Quite possible the tip and torch is heating much more quickly than the Bernzomatic. Once you over heat the new water soluble fluxes the solder will not flow. With low lead brass heat both the brass socket and the tube. If you heat just the base of the brass you might overt heat the fitting and not warm the copper enough to flow the solder. Nibco also has a you tube about soldering low lead brass
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    ChrisJ
  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,674
    Come on over ChrisJ, I'll have you soldering and brazing everything under the sun in no time
    Steve Minnich
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    [email protected]
    ChrisJjonny88
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,974
    hot rod said:

    Quite possible the tip and torch is heating much more quickly than the Bernzomatic. Once you over heat the new water soluble fluxes the solder will not flow. With low lead brass heat both the brass socket and the tube. If you heat just the base of the brass you might overt heat the fitting and not warm the copper enough to flow the solder. Nibco also has a you tube about soldering low lead brass

    Not using water soluble flux.
    This is the stuff I've been using since 2011.




    I'm sure I didn't burn up the flux, but there is a chance the solder did behave like I had it too hot. The joints all turned out good, I just felt they weren't up to the quality I wanted.

    Perhaps I just need to get used to the different torch.


    I tried to find closeups of the joints I did using the Turbotorch but these are the best I have. They really don't show much detail.





    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    I'm using mostly propylene here, but am finding that smaller tips make it easier to keep heat where I want it and keep things from overheating. Sometimes the lower flame temp of LPG turns out to be the answer.
  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,674
    Is that the same tub of flux since 2011? I use only Nokorode but I wouldn't trust any flux that's over a year old - based on bad results. Another thing I changed about 10 years ago was that I only use propane for soft soldering and I'm always changing tips based on copper size. You have to control the heat as much as anything. TurboTorch is great for brazing but overkill for soft soldering IMO.
    Steve Minnich
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    [email protected]
    jonny88
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,974
    Yessir same tub from 2011. I guess I need to order some fresh stuff.

    Your work is only as good as your tools.

    What solder does everyone like? I'm almost out so time for a new spool
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,674
    HeatBoy (Jeffrey Young) turned me on to Staybrite #8 15-20 years ago and I haven't used anything since. Pricey but worth it. It fills gaps of bad fittings like no other.
    Steve Minnich
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    [email protected]
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Bridgit for day to day use here, with SB8 for higher temp or stress applications.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,837
    96-4, flows like 50-50... Oatey Blue, I believe. The silver roll is 95-5 if memory serves me correctly.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    95-5 changes from a liquid to a solid across in a mere 12°F, which can definitely present some challenges.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,974
    This is what I've been using.
    Any opinions? Stay with it, get rid of it etc?


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    jonny88
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 15,033
    Try some different brands to find the one you like. I use Bridgit. It has a wide temperature range and is great on loose fittings and for capping off

    http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Products/Alloys/Soldering/Lead-Free-Solders/Bridgit.aspx
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,974
    So here's where my gauge says my tank is at.

    Would you think this means swap the tank, or I have plenty left?





    I see full has a huge range, so I'm wondering if empty is just as huge.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,974
    ChrisJ said:

    So here's where my gauge says my tank is at.

    Would you think this means swap the tank, or I have plenty left?





    I see full has a huge range, so I'm wondering if empty is just as huge.

    Cmon, there's no one on this forum that uses one of these torches and has a general idea of when to swap a tank? You're killing me. :)
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,974
    @Techman

    Do you use a turbotorch?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 2,925
    I never pay attention to the gauge on the regulator, I just notice when I have to keep turning down the O2. That, or when it starts spitting yellow flames...
    ChrisJ
  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,674
    When the flame starts sputtering out, you need a new tank.
    Steve Minnich
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    [email protected]
    ChrisJSWEI
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 8,949
    I use the "B" tank acetylene/air torch. The temperature of the tank will affect the gauge setting and operation a lot. The gauges are not high grade anyway.

    I can gain about a 1/4 reading in cold weather by just bringing the tank inside to the job.
    Of course you keep the tank valve off....not just the hose/torch button?
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,974
    JUGHNE said:

    I use the "B" tank acetylene/air torch. The temperature of the tank will affect the gauge setting and operation a lot. The gauges are not high grade anyway.

    I can gain about a 1/4 reading in cold weather by just bringing the tank inside to the job.
    Of course you keep the tank valve off....not just the hose/torch button?

    What I do is I shut the tank off and let the torch empty out.
    I then turn the regulator all the way down and close the valve on the torch handle.

    May not be the "right way" but it seemed like the safest way to me.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 8,949
    There were stories (maybe here) of tanks carried in cars/trucks with only the handle shut off, but not completely.

    Remote control to unlock the doors was the ignition source.
    Having a good range (batteries) on the hand held transmitter probably saved some lives.
    SWEI
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,974
    JUGHNE said:

    There were stories (maybe here) of tanks carried in cars/trucks with only the handle shut off, but not completely.

    Remote control to unlock the doors was the ignition source.
    Having a good range (batteries) on the hand held transmitter probably saved some lives.

    Seen quite a few news reports on it.
    Though I don't recall them giving a reason for the explosions, typically there was nothing really left of the vehicle.

    I treat my torch with great respect.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    JUGHNE said:

    I use the "B" tank acetylene/air torch. The temperature of the tank will affect the gauge setting and operation a lot. The gauges are not high grade anyway.
    I can gain about a 1/4 reading in cold weather by just bringing the tank inside to the job.

    This is a big part of why we ditched acetylene for propylene a couple of years back. The reduction in uncertainty and complexity has measurable value IMO.