Maybe a little ventilation isn't so bad...

Jamie Hall

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-36134213

Food for thought.

ChrisJ

Keep windows open at night?

Guess my house is nicer than I thought. I don't have to remember or do any of these things and I automatically get an occasional breeze through the house.

STEVEusaPA

They just started selling air to air exchangers for this....about 20 years ago?

bob_46

I read LAOSH in 95 and Dan's comments on the great flu epidemic and open windows stuck. I don't turn off the heat but close the door and open the window every night and haven't had the flu since. Come to think of it my father and grandfather did the same thing.

ChrisJ

bob said:

I read LAOSH in 95 and Dan's comments on the great flu epidemic and open windows stuck. I don't turn off the heat but close the door and open the window every night and haven't had the flu since. Come to think of it my father and grandfather did the same thing.

You do realize that's not how viruses work, right?

Canucker

Jamie Hall said:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-36134213

Food for thought.

So an airtight building, and an owner that couldn't be bothered to figure out how the ventilation system worked or why it was there, made someone ill?
Wouldn't it make sense to figure out how one of the single biggest investment you'll make, operates?

Forgive me if I have no sympathy for them.

SWEI

Tight buildings are a fact at this point. The homeowner should not have to manage this manually. ASHRAE 62.2 and BSC's GM-1501 both address this in some detail.

ChrisJ

SWEI said:

Tight buildings are a fact at this point. The homeowner should not have to manage this manually. ASHRAE 62.2 and BSC's GM-1501 both address this in some detail.

Like GE said in the 1920s when engineering their refrigerator. Any machine in the home that needs attention will be neglected.

It was true in the mid 1920s, and it's true now.

bob_46

ChrisJ said:

bob said:

I read LAOSH in 95 and Dan's comments on the great flu epidemic and open windows stuck. I don't turn off the heat but close the door and open the window every night and haven't had the flu since. Come to think of it my father and grandfather did the same thing.

You do realize that's not how viruses work, right?

If Dan says it, it's gospel. Don't try to confuse me.

How does the automatic defrost work on that GE?

ChrisJ

bob said:

ChrisJ said:

bob said:

I read LAOSH in 95 and Dan's comments on the great flu epidemic and open windows stuck. I don't turn off the heat but close the door and open the window every night and haven't had the flu since. Come to think of it my father and grandfather did the same thing.

You do realize that's not how viruses work, right?

If Dan says it, it's gospel. Don't try to confuse me.

How does the automatic defrost work on that GE?

When you turn the knob to "defrost" it changes the evaporator's temp swing so the upper limit is well above freezing. For example, instead of running 7F - 18F it will run 7F - 40F. The evaporator cannot get above freezing until all of the frost is gone. Once it warms up enough, the compressor starts back up and pulls it back down to it's normal shut off point.

My 1933 needs to be manually returned back to it's "ON" position but my two 1934 models automatically snap back to it on their own as GE added an extra cam or something to the control in 34.

It works ok, but I usually turn it to OFF and throw an aluminum ice cube tray of hot water in it. An hour or so later I go in, dump the glass tray out and wipe the evaporator down with a cloth and restart it. Cabinet temp is usually around 40F by this point as I run it at 32-34F.

Jamie Hall

Canucker said:

Jamie Hall said:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-36134213

Food for thought.

So an airtight building, and an owner that couldn't be bothered to figure out how the ventilation system worked or why it was there, made someone ill?
Wouldn't it make sense to figure out how one of the single biggest investment you'll make, operates?

Forgive me if I have no sympathy for them.

I do. Have sympathy. On the one hand you have a bunch of folks yelling to tighten up your house and save energy. On the other you have a bunch of others yammering on about ventilation. Both groups have apparently good credentials, at least the way they are portrayed, and both have something to be said for them (how often have I read here on the wall someone suggesting that the most important thing to do is to tighten up the envelope?) Most homeowners have neither the time nor the interest to find out where the correct balance is.

Canucker

I will agree with you on that. Most homeowners definitely can't be bothered to learn about it. But shouldn't that be an indication to dig a little deeper into it? Just because a manual was "too technical" for them doesn't justify their continued willful ignorance of how it should work. Essentially throwing their hands in the air and doing nothing is why they get no sympathy from me.

SWEI

Can we really expect that the average homeowner will read a manual in order to simply live in their house?

JUGHNE

How much of the motor vehicle manuals ever get read?

Steve Minnich

Every time I see this thread, I see "Maybe a little vacation isn't so bad...".
I think I'm in need of one.

ChrisJ

JUGHNE said:

How much of the motor vehicle manuals ever get read?

Motorvehicles ventilate automatically for you so it's a moot point. They also operate their air bags, ABS and other safety features automatically.

The primary thing in the manual is basic operating instructions and maintenance stuff which 90% of people either already know, or let their mechanic handle.


What confuses me on this subject is why would I pay extra to build a house so tight that I have to pay extra to install a fan(s) that I will have to pay extra to run all of the time to create an artificial draft?

Seems counter productive at that point doesn't it?


Not to mention I've seen more health hazards in modern houses than in older ones by far. Great, we saved 2% on energy but are making people sick with mold and other issues.



This meme comes to mind on the subject.

Abracadabra

So that YOU can control when YOU want to ventilate, instead of the house dictating to you when to ventilate.

ChrisJ

Abracadabra said:

So that YOU can control when YOU want to ventilate, instead of the house dictating to you when to ventilate.

What about all of the health concerns and extra costs related to this "control" ?

Steve Minnich

Robert Bean is a really good read regarding this subject.

NY_Rob

Regarding indoor air quality- Is there a major impact when going from a traditional boiler that uses indoor air for combustion to a sealed combustion boiler that uses outdoor air for combustion? Is that something to be concerned about in terms of indoor air turnover?

ChrisJ

If I could, I'd tighten my house up a lot, a real lot.
I'd also feed the boiler with outside air if it were possible.

Maybe controlled ventilation isn't bad.

Jamie Hall

ChrisJ said:

If I could, I'd tighten my house up a lot, a real lot.
I'd also feed the boiler with outside air if it were possible.

Maybe controlled ventilation isn't bad.

Oh quite. The big question, though, is who controls the ventilation, and what signals do they use to do so? It's not like temperature -- folks do have trouble with thermostats, but most can manage them OK. Humidity, too, in a whole house system -- although it is not uncommon for people to demand higher levels of humidity than are desirable. But what signal does one use for "air quality" -- which is what's at issue here. Odour? Usually by the time something smells that bad, it's way out of whack, and there are many compounds in a modern house which are problematic to various degrees at remarkably low levels -- and humans aren't equipped with built in sensors for those things or those levels.

Thus if the current propaganda is to control infiltration to the maximum, to save energy, that is exactly what people will do (if you were to read the stuff my local power company sends out you would conclude that the ideal environment would be a sealed and insulated plastic bubble).

Not an easy problem to solve, eh?

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

ChrisJ said:

If I could, I'd tighten my house up a lot, a real lot.
I'd also feed the boiler with outside air if it were possible.

Maybe controlled ventilation isn't bad.

Oh quite. The big question, though, is who controls the ventilation, and what signals do they use to do so? It's not like temperature -- folks do have trouble with thermostats, but most can manage them OK. Humidity, too, in a whole house system -- although it is not uncommon for people to demand higher levels of humidity than are desirable. But what signal does one use for "air quality" -- which is what's at issue here. Odour? Usually by the time something smells that bad, it's way out of whack, and there are many compounds in a modern house which are problematic to various degrees at remarkably low levels -- and humans aren't equipped with built in sensors for those things or those levels.

Thus if the current propaganda is to control infiltration to the maximum, to save energy, that is exactly what people will do (if you were to read the stuff my local power company sends out you would conclude that the ideal environment would be a sealed and insulated plastic bubble).

Not an easy problem to solve, eh?

Need to make it so people can control it, but within reason, similar to a car.

My car's system appears to turn recirculate off every so often for 5-10 seconds and then turn it back on.

Make it so there's a minimum amount it will do based on conditions, and make it so there's a maximum it can do. The maximum will probably be limited by the hardware. Use motion sensors to know when people are home, run it for a certain amount of time after people leave and then shut it down. This should also work with pets.

If multiple sensors pick up motion, circulate more air etc.

RH shouldn't effect the minimum setting as people need fresh air to live even when it's humid.

Gordy

Well no one has trouble figuring out the need to turn on the fart fan when things get turbulent on the commode, or when the steam from a shower is stifling.

The whole logic to controlling envelope infiltration is to save energy, and increase comfort. With proper ach there should be no mold, or sick building syndrome. Of course this starts with proper design, and implementation of the system.

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

Well no one has trouble figuring out the need to turn on the fart fan when things get turbulent on the commode, or when the steam from a shower is stifling.

The whole logic to controlling envelope infiltration is to save energy, and increase comfort. With proper ach there should be no mold, or sick building syndrome. Of course this starts with proper design, and implementation of the system.

High humidity, or a smelly dump isn't the same as CO2 poisoning.

I honestly don't know if I'd know when to run it.

Jamie Hall

ChrisJ said:

Gordy said:

Well no one has trouble figuring out the need to turn on the fart fan when things get turbulent on the commode, or when the steam from a shower is stifling.

The whole logic to controlling envelope infiltration is to save energy, and increase comfort. With proper ach there should be no mold, or sick building syndrome. Of course this starts with proper design, and implementation of the system.

High humidity, or a smelly dump isn't the same as CO2 poisoning.

I honestly don't know if I'd know when to run it.

Or radon, or formaldehyde or... years ago when I was inspecting buildings, I wanted to see two to four air changes per hour. Minimum. Higher for some applications. Of course, with the right ducting one can use sensible heat exchangers to reduce the energy losses (not latent! They just recycle a lot of the less desirable things). Which is, of course, an argument in favour of forced air heat...