Appropriate topics for "The Politics of Heating"

Sal Santamaura

I was happy to see Erin start this new category. There was one very long established thread and one shorter new one that definitely have an appropriate home now.

However, the other new threads started since the category was made available seem to fit more into the heading of just plain "politics." I'm concerned that such a direction will lead to negative situations and the eventual need for reinstating Dan's old "no politics" rule.

Erin -- how do you feel about this? Should political discussion be strictly limited to things that affect heating? Or are you comfortable with heatinghelp.com becoming a venue where unrelated political interaction takes place? I suspect clarification and guidance from you would be very helpful in keeping things on track. Thank in advance for responding.

Sal Santamaura

Sal Santamaura said:

...the other new threads started since the category was made available seem to fit more into the heading of just plain "politics."...

Oops. "Bumper stickers" was also appropriate.

BobC

Some of these discussions are organic and go off in different directions than one might expect. I think as long as we are respectful of each others opinions and do not not start to push a specific candidate or deride another's point of view I think leeway should be granted in this specific forum.

We are all adults and should be expected to act as such.

Bob

Fred

Sal Santamaura said:

Sal Santamaura said:

...the other new threads started since the category was made available seem to fit more into the heading of just plain "politics."...

Oops. "Bumper stickers" was also appropriate.

Education and skill sets are also appropriate, IMHO.

Steve Minnich

Our discussions go off on all kinds of tangents and 99% of it is all good. IMHO, Erin is doing a fine job and if she needs advice, I'm guessing she'll ask the man who started this awesome adventure.

Paul48

Here's a guideline..........If you wouldn't say it at your kitchen table, to a friend, don't say it here.

4Johnpipe

Say what you mean...mean what you say and don't say it mean...

Erin Holohan Haskell

@Sal Santamaura, thanks for asking. I agree with what the other Wallies are saying. So far so good!

Tim McElwain

You guys should have been here back when the Wall first started it used to get pretty interesting to say the least. I have a list of names in my head of some who used to post here and they went from everything to Politics to religion. Being a minister of the gospel I have learned to simply let my light shine and not get into controversy about religion or politics.

Say what are those folks names who are running for President whoops sorry!

Gordy

I think the state of our nation, and it's direction is not to far off tangent for discussion. As @BobC said earlier keep it generic. Many great respectable minds here to keep things in perspective.

Since it will be its own catagorey you do not have to dwell, or participate there. Well done @Erin Holohan Haskell I think we have the intellectual capacity to be gentlemen, and ladies about discussions.

Gordy

Hatterasguy said:

Gordy said:

I think the state of our nation, and it's direction is not to far off tangent for discussion. As @BobC said earlier keep it generic. Many great respectable minds here to keep things in perspective.

Since it will be its own catagorey you do not have to dwell, or participate there. Well done @Erin Holohan Haskell I think we have the intellectual capacity to be gentlemen, and ladies about discussions.

Let's face it.

You cannot have a "discussion" about politics. Either you agree with the comments of an individual or you do not.

No amount of discussion is ever going to change your opinion.

The category is simply to allow people to vent. That's what they do and nobody minds it one bit. Nobody really comments negatively or disagrees and we just move on.

I was under the impression that this catagorey would be related to governmental decisions in energy,alternative energy, and all things relevant that effect the participates of this site. Be it businesses, manufactors,homeowners etc.

Gordy

Don't worry we have mediation. The next generation Holohan. Good stock. Don't ruin it folks.

I'm sure if we can not be ladies, and gents it will be pulled. Focus on the intent of the category.

Erin Holohan Haskell

Well said, @Gordy.

Mad Dog_2

All is dandy until someone steps over the line and throws out the ad hominem attacks. I'm am a seasoned veteran of those old Wall political brawls. They were great, but as Dan cautioned me many times, sometimes forcefully. ..ha ha. YOUR business is ATTACHED to these posts and your Pissing OFF at least half the people out there. I came to realize he was 100 percent correct....it really is not professional, nor beneficial to get in bloody political fights here. That being given said, if one could keep one's arguments fair and not nasty, it is fine to express an opinion. Mad Dog

Paul48

Every topic is subject to opinion. We've seen people get nasty about every sort of opinion. The problem is not the choice of topic. It is the individuals that choose to be nasty.

Gordy

Many other web sites of this type have specific catagoreies for many different types of topics nonspecific to the forums. Seems to work.

I'm thinking a BBQ / recipe category is in order. Wait coming out of winter tried on my shorts the other day.......maybe not a good idea.

Steve Minnich

@Gordy - Not before the music or hockey categories, right?

GreenGene

All that being said it seems the politics of energy are as usual, as they have been, will be controlled, like net metering and other decisions that do not involve us and get no input from us, they will not be logical or based on what is best for society, they will based (regardless of party) on what is the most profitable.

This is where they make a fatal mistake because if you keep energy costs low by any and all means you build a strong economy because the middle class citizenry and business owners can then spend that money on other things, it's called Middle Class Discretionary Spending and that is what fuels a strong U.S. economy. That is also what really creates jobs.

SWEI

Please explain to me how if we keep energy costs low by any and all means but we in turn allow the costs of education, housing, basic medial care and clean, truly healthy food to skyrocket we have actually helped the middle class.

Gordy

I use to think that. However since fuel costs have dropped to 2 bucks a gallon range. There has been no relief in the grocery store. Or for that matter any products that require energy to make, and ship.

Explain to me how corporations can make their product out of country. Send that product here, and be more profitable than making it here? What does that say about the cost of labor out of country, and all things connected port to port? What does that say about the middle class work force in other countries?

Let alone education, and medical costs.

Paul48

This is a dangerous time for this country. What will happen when the dollar tanks?

Gordy

Hatterasguy said:

Gordy said:

Many other web sites of this type have specific catagoreies for many different types of topics nonspecific to the forums. Seems to work.

I'm thinking a BBQ / recipe category is in order. Wait coming out of winter tried on my shorts the other day.......maybe not a good idea.

I'm thinking you need Facebook and not HH.

Hey I like to eat back off!

Gordy

Paul48 said:

This is a dangerous time for this country. What will happen when the dollar tanks?

A wheel barrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread.

GreenGene

Gordy, regarding labor costs, what are we worth?, how much do we like to get paid? Don't get fooled by politicians claims that American workers are too expensive or costs here are too expensive, that's a ruse, they just want to exploit cheap labor and a lack of environmental laws elsewhere, we had green and purple rivers with no fish, we've had polluted drinking water, we made corrections, does it cut into profit for a corporation to be responsible? Yes, but moral and social responsibility is more important especially when time and time again it's the U.S. taxpayers that have to pay to clean up the mess they made and take care of the sick and injured for decades.

If America is no good for corporations why is Daiken building the largest facility west of Houston with over 200 shipping docks? Why not build in Mexico like Trane and Carrier? Perhaps these imagined savings of using labor outside the U.S. has faults, the fewer people employed in the U.S. the fewer people have buying power.


Regarding SWEI's question, excellent point, our problem is we've allowed education and medical to become too profit motivated, most hospitals are corporations hiding behind a non profit claim to avoid taxes and they overcharge for everything from saline to pills and procedures sometimes by 800%, with education it's a rigged system, an investment firm gets locked into providing supplies, books and curriculum to all the nation's schools by law, what a scam, some big names invest in it again the goal isn't smart American children, it's profit which is why we have issues with NCLB and Common Core.

Some things shouldn't be only about profit, they should be about quality and results.

Gordy

What I was iluding to are the very things you said. Corporations taking advantage of relaxed environmental laws,and labor costs. I think our labor costs are fair however the value of the dollar is in a tail spin. When a lottery jackpot can get to 1 billion dollars what does that say about the value of the dollar?

The last generation to enjoy a robust dollar, and have spending power was probably from after ww2.

When it costs 75 grand to get a BA at a university with in state tuition there are issues in the system. Pretty hard to find a summer job, and part time while in school to knock down 20 grand for tuition for the year.....

Paul48

We all hate to agree with the "gloom and doom" economists. But, when they can ramble for 20 minutes about their reasoning, and you can't fault it, where does that leave us? The dollar will never be stable unless you go back to the Gold Standard.

BobC

I hear all the pontificating about high taxes and I think about the 50's and 60's when taxes were much higher than they are now The country was growing like a weed and good jobs were everywhere.

Don't listen to the crowd offering two chickens in every pot and don't listen to the one who wants to bomb everybody back to the stone age. We need a good middle course where nobody gets all they want - back to basics.

Bob

Gordy

BobC said:

I hear all the pontificating about high taxes and I think about the 50's and 60's when taxes were much higher than they are now The country was growing like a weed and good jobs were everywhere.

Don't listen to the crowd offering two chickens in every pot and don't listen to the one who wants to bomb everybody back to the stone age. We need a good middle course where nobody gets all they want - back to basics.

Bob

Agree Bob however the key words are good jobs were everywhere. The country was growing like a weed. To many bubbles have burned to many people since 2000. My grandma use to be a big player in the stock market. Stuck with the bricks, and mortar company's did very well. If the stock market was not doing well t bills were.

Remember when the market advances were in 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, points. Gram said a good day was a stock advancing 1/2, or 50 cents. Now no one is happy unless it jumps 5.00. She lived through the depression, the tech bubble the dot com bubble, and never stuck a dime in tech types of companies. To volatile, with sketchy intrinsic values.

BobC

@Gordy I remember when my uncle retired in the 70's and the market took a nose dive, the only thing that saved them was ihe interest rates on savings accounts. Now your lucky to get 0.8% on $10G's

I agree that Wall St has been stacking the deck against the average Joe for too long, read what Warren Buffet has to say about those thieves --

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/warren-buffetts-epic-rant-against-wall-street/ar-BBswOc7

Bob

Gordy

BobC said:

@Gordy I remember when my uncle retired in the 70's and the market took a nose dive, the only thing that saved them was ihe interest rates on savings accounts. Now your lucky to get 0.8% on $10G's

I agree that Wall St has been stacking the deck against the average Joe for too long, read what Warren Buffet has to say about those thieves --

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/warren-buffetts-epic-rant-against-wall-street/ar-BBswOc7

Bob

Read Warrens book Buffetology, or rather a book written about him. Good read. Very frugal man for his wealth. He would give the family money for Christmas, and tell them where to invest it.

GreenGene

Two good reads are "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" and "The Great American Stick Up".

We hit our stride in the late 70's early 80's thanks to regulations that were taking effect and the clean energy standards of Carter. Like him or not it was a very straight forward plan where you the taxpayer or business owner took a deduction off your taxes for energy improvements for your home, I have it on file because what is said in the media these days just isn't true, we've gone through an era of deregulation that was bad for the people and it also was very bad for the media, most of our news especially about past events is wrong, now if you're 20-30 you might buy their new history, but being there is another story.

We were so busy installing new equipment and flame retention burners in old equipment we could not keep up and the summer of 80 we did no maintenances unless they demanded, that's how busy we were, solar was getting huge, they couldn't keep up.

I'll skip the 2 dudes that killed the program and ripped the solar panels off the White House roof but that was very wrong, very wrong.

Now we have incentives and rebates again but most of them are filtered through the local electric and gas companies or a faux state agency that steers most of the money to a few large corporations, oil companies are barred from getting any rebates for their equipment, the Carter system worked better because it was up to the consumer or business to pay for their upgrade or get a loan and then get the tax rebate directly, now tax dollars and rate payer dollars are being steered, it's a jaded system.

Paul48

I can see the government making ,zero interest loans available. I can't see myself, and every other tax payer funding energy improvements.

GreenGene

Paul48 that is exactly what I'm talking about.

I was taking a sustainability course when the incentives started, I got a report from the DOE about my state Ct and where the ARRA money went, I was floored, 167 million and it all went to pet projects when it was supposed to start green jobs and save energy, I downloaded it, if I was using my head I would've down loaded all 50 states because I sent it to NPR/PBS, 60Minutes and a few other media outlets, I was interviewed for NPR, then nothing, hmmm, went back to the DOE site and all 50 reports had been changed to candy coated versions with no dollar reports. ( and that's why ARRA didn't work)

UTC got over 120 million for a jet engine they all already R&D'd and built. At the time I was doing energy upgrades for commercial buildings and schools so I did my own little study.

I could have, for the 167 million, refurbished every school in Ct with a new bank of staged/modulating boilers that would have saved each town/city a few hundred thousand a year and I would have created a ton of jobs and I would have had @ 60 million left over to give major rebates to homeowners and small to mid size business owners.

If you've ever worked at a school you know what energy wasting clunkers they have, and that's how you do a stimulus, you don't give money, you invest it, if I gave the towns that money corruption would suck it up, it'd be gone with nothing to show.

SWEI

GreenGene said:

Two good reads are "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" and "The Great American Stick Up".

Both excellent reads IMO.

the Carter system worked better because it was up to the consumer or business to pay for their upgrade or get a loan and then get the tax rebate directly

They system worked quite well as long as the manufacturer, the contractor and the property owner all operated with integrity and honesty.

We may have gone a bridge too far with the SRCC's near-monopoly and the outrageous cost of certifications, especially systems requirements (think OG-300.) A properly certified designer who carries liability insurance should have the leeway to build a system out of whatever approved and certified components he or she wishes.