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It's their world now

245

Comments

  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    It's not the kids fault, and in a lot of cases, it's not the parents fault either. Parents are sending their kids to school for an education. The curriculum has been dumbed-down, so that no child gets left behind. The delinquents run the school, biding their time until their first jail stint. Their kids will graduate high school alongside a kid the has an IQ that will only ever be at a 7th grade level. If you have, or know a 5th grader.....ask him/her some simple multiplication questions. You might get something like 8x8 is about 60.......THAT GETS A TROPHY!!!!!
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,119
    That's true. My seven yr old grand niece demonstrated that she knew how to add and multiply but then when I asked her what she is learning in school these days, she said "ball Parking". WHAT!?! The 'Sisters of NO MERCY', would never have accepted ball parking! But it is a thing now!
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 15,445
    What is ball parking?
    Retired and loving it.
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,390
    Estimating the answer to a math question. Ex. 100+97 =200 Answering 197 would be marked wrong
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  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 15,445
    Future astronomers?
    Retired and loving it.
    SWEI
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,628
    edited April 2016
    Future accountants I think ! Nobody will ever again be able to figure out how bad they're being robbed . Probably why they are breaking everyones' chops about homeschooling
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
    ttekushan_3New England SteamWorks
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 4,847
    So you guys know down to the 1/16" how much pipe you will need for an install or do you "ball park" it? It's called being able to ensure an answer makes sense quickly. This is a common thing. I don't sit in engineering meetings doing complex calculations in the meeting, we ball park all the time and then do the detailed calcs later. This is actually a very important skill whether you realize it or not.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    CanuckerBrewbeer
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 15,445
    They'll be good a figuring heat loss. I mean, following industry traditions and all. ;)
    Retired and loving it.
    Rich_49Erin Holohan Haskellttekushan_3
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,985
    The engineers I work with like the new system. They say it teaches kids how to think and do problem solving rather than just learn something through repetition.

    The only people I ever see attack it are people who don't understand it.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 15,445
    So long to Measure Twice, Cut Once.
    Retired and loving it.
    ttekushan_3
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,985

    So long to Measure Twice, Cut Once.

    I was taught, measure once, cut once.

    :)
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,628
    What we used to call education or intelligence is now repetition ? Kinda scary when about 1" means 7/8" or 1 1/16" . I guess plumbing and heating systems are gonna be much uglier in about a decade . All those abouts really add up after awhile or a distance , watch the National debt !
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,119
    edited April 2016
    I was taught to know how to add, subtract, multiply and divide accurately and without a calculator. I wasn't even allowed to have a calculator until senior year of high school.

    My 7 yr old niece has a COMPUTER! -and they get to "ball park" it? Isn't this backwards? Shouldn't we learn things by rote, then learn how to guess with a tolerance of accuracy?

    Were the nuns wrong?

    Rich_49
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,985
    Rich said:

    What we used to call education or intelligence is now repetition ? Kinda scary when about 1" means 7/8" or 1 1/16" . I guess plumbing and heating systems are gonna be much uglier in about a decade . All those abouts really add up after awhile or a distance , watch the National debt !

    The way we used to teach basic math was through repetition.

    http://k12teacherstaffdevelopment.com/tlb/learning-by-repetition-does-it-work/


    It teaches nothing more than to do that specific function.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    CanuckerKC_JonesBrewbeer
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,985
    SlamDunk said:

    I was taught to know how to add, subtract, multiply and divide accurately and without a calculator. I wasn't even allowed to have a calculator until senior year of high school.

    My 7 yr old niece has a COMPUTER! -and they get to "ball park" it? Isn't this backwards? Shouldn't we learn things by rote, then learn how to guess with a tolerance of accuracy?

    Where the nuns wrong?



    Well the part in bold I'll answer.
    YES. In many ways.


    To the rest of your question, the proof is in the pudding and our children are learning faster, and more skills than before.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Canucker
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,628
    I wonder if that is the way the rest of the international community is teaching their future leaders . I'm guessing , NO , especially since many of them attend school for a longer period and they are surpassing the US in manufacturing , number of employed .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 4,847
    SlamDunk said:

    I was taught to know how to add, subtract, multiply and divide accurately and without a calculator. I wasn't even allowed to have a calculator until senior year of high school.

    My 7 yr old niece has a COMPUTER! -and they get to "ball park" it? Isn't this backwards? Shouldn't we learn things by rote, then learn how to guess with a tolerance of accuracy?

    Were the nuns wrong?

    So you are criticizing that your niece is not only learning everything you did, but also learning how a computer works? In other words she is being taught more than you and that's bad? Also being taught how to THINK instead of just memorize? I have 3 kids in Elementary school right now. What they are learning in content AND volume is leaps and bounds beyond what any previous generation has had. Everyone that is actually INVOLVED in a child's schooling and pays attention is blown away by what is being taught. Most parents WON'T get involved and then want to criticize what is being taught when they themselves have no understanding of what is going on.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    Canucker
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 4,847
    Rich said:

    I wonder if that is the way the rest of the international community is teaching their future leaders . I'm guessing , NO , especially since many of them attend school for a longer period and they are surpassing the US in manufacturing , number of employed .

    So you are criticizing based on a guess? Guess again...we are modeling after other countries that surpassed us LONG ago. We are playing catch up because people like those commenting on this thread refuse to believe there is a better way to teach children. And now that it has been proven by how other countries are killing us in education you still refuse to believe it.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 15,445
    KC, let's not make this personal. Please.
    Retired and loving it.
    ttekushan_3
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 4,847
    Apologies Dan, I have a DEEP passion for education for everyone so I can get pretty heated when the discussion takes place.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 15,445
    I understand, KC. This new section can turn volatile with emotions. Erin's taking a chance here and trusting us now that she's running the place. It would be great if we could respect her wishes and keep the conversations calm. Thanks.
    Retired and loving it.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    This is a case of someone with power and influence, not having a good understanding of what comes first....the cart, or the horse. And folks are afraid to say, you're a moron.

    If you look at intelligent people, they all can "ballpark" and estimate. So...obviously we should teach that first. NO!!!!!! Intelligent people have that ability because they have a "working knowledge" of what they are "ball-parking" or estimating. It is merely a consequence, not a rule.

    Teachers have very little time with students when they are young. Not memorizing multiplication tables, in favor of three months of "ball-parking" is ridiculous.

    Maybe folks that feel this is such a good thing, don't understand that this is not being added to the three R's, it has replaced them.

  • Erin Holohan Haskell
    Erin Holohan Haskell Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 1,704

    I understand, KC. This new section can turn volatile with emotions. Erin's taking a chance here and trusting us now that she's running the place. It would be great if we could respect her wishes and keep the conversations calm. Thanks.

    Yes, please.
    President
    HeatingHelp.com
  • Erin Holohan Haskell
    Erin Holohan Haskell Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 1,704
    edited April 2016
    This discussion reminds me of an article my dad wrote about Search vs. Research.
    President
    HeatingHelp.com
    SWEI
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,390
    edited April 2016
    You beat me to it, Dan!! :)
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  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,628
    With math like this , by the time you figured out how to design a system , 3 would be installed . Sorry , this is not better nor necessary , IMO . It is also not Ballparking . I'm kinda old and we learned math and ESTIMATION (ballparking) .

    Children now fail math if they do not show the work , even when giving a correct answer . A correct answer is a correct answer no matter how it was arrived at . What is going on when a child whom gives a correct answer fails a test ?

    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,119
    edited April 2016
    How does a question mark at the end equate to criticism? Actually, there are four question marks.

    Time will tell if this is a better way to teach. I hope it is!

    The brain is a muscle that needs rigorous exercise. The reliance on computers can lead to atrophy-that is what I have always been told . "What will happen if your calculator's battery dies in the middle of a test and you don't know the math? " -Is what adults have always asked me. Same question to a different device.

    Ball parking is another term for "fudge factor" and "a good guess" and "close enough" ,and, it too seems to be a path to brain atrophy. It is human nature to take the path of least resistance and most humans will take that path.

    So, same question for modern times: What happens when cyber terrorism shut down the grid for a month and cash registers don't work? Nor will computers? What happens when people cant log on to heatinghelp.com? facebook or twitter?



  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,680
    edited April 2016
    @KC_Jones - I admire your passion for education. I agree that our kids are being fed more information but are they absorbing more? It seems to me that we continue to rank lower than other industrialized nations in this regard. I do a fair amount of work in the inner city, including schools, and these kids are using textbooks that are 20 years old. You go to the northwest suburbs and kids are learning in state of the art educational centers. You want to talk politics, education is a good place to start. We should be making higher learning an opportunity for all, not just the ones in better neighborhoods.

    My oldest daughter is a teacher and she is always trying to implement change because of standardized testing and other things that she knows infinitely more about than I ever will.
    Steve Minnich
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    [email protected]
    Rich_49
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 4,847
    I see my kids and others absorbing it. We as a society have learned that a child can absorb infinitely more than we ever gave credit for. I can still remember as a child thinking "why are we still going over this?" Too much time was spent on one topic then the children get bored and go into a shutdown. I hate to throw this into the mix, but hey why not. It's not just a school issue it really is a parent issue. I live in a community with great schools, BUT it is a very poor community. The school and teachers seriously couldn't be any better it's truly amazing. Our test scores are terrible. So what is the problem? What is the thing holding these kids back? What I and others are seeing is the parents. They don't prioritize the child's education. My wife and I are constantly trying to figure out how to get more parental involvement in the children's lives. We attend every PTO (PTA) meeting, I am the treasurer and communications officer for the PTO. My wife volunteers at the school (3 days a week) and works with other peoples children who need the help, but aren't getting it at home. We spend a lot of time discussing this topic. We send information home, but the parents literally throw ALL of it in the trash. They just don't want to seem to be bothered. We can't go to their house, we can't talk to them directly we can only suggest. I am honestly at my wits end. I see this fantastic school that has so much to offer and no one seems to want to take advantage of it. How does a society "fix" these types of problems? I wish I knew.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    I absolutely agree....there are better ways to teach children. None of those ways, include tossing the fundamentals. Once again, it is a misdiagnosis of the problems in our education system. Our students have fallen behind others in the world because we spend about 5 hours a day, 180 days a year in classrooms designed to teach them something. Our students were not pushed, or challenged with the old style of education. Making it easier, so you can show testing data that more students are succeeding does nothing to change that.
  • Steve Minnich
    Steve Minnich Member Posts: 2,680
    My experience says its about stopping cycles. Generational cycles passed on from parents to children and then on to the next generation, and on and on. It's about getting to one person or one child, one at a time.
    Steve Minnich
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    [email protected]
    KC_Jones
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 4,847

    My experience says its about stopping cycles. Generational cycles passed on from parents to children and then on to the next generation, and on and on. It's about getting to one person or one child, one at a time.

    And this is why my wife volunteers, if we can help just one child it was worth it. This is a quote from one of the kids she works with weekly. "I didn't have lunch or dinner yesterday (Sunday) because Mommy was sleeping". First grader and she has a 2 year old brother in the house. I have a hard time believing she was sleeping "naturally" for that long.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    Unfortunately, we can't change that. All we can do, is provide(safe) places where every student is exposed to the best educational opportunity. "You can lead a horse to water..........
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,628
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 15,445
    Great discourse, guys. Isn't it nice that we can talk to each other without shouting?
    Retired and loving it.
    Erin Holohan HaskellRich_49
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    @KC_Jones

    I understand what you are saying. These are horrible issues. How does changing the way we teach all children, correct that problem?
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    ^ a good start would be ditching No Child Left Behind, Common Core and Race to the Top.
    All were experiments that failed miserably and only produced good "test takers".
    Rich_49SWEI
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,985
    Learning an awful lot in this thread.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,217
    This discussion and others that will appear on this corner of the wall will have one universal truth. It is entirely possible for everyone to be wrong and equally impossible for everyone to be right.

    Fascinating.
    Robert O'Brien
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 4,847
    Paul48 said:

    @KC_Jones

    I understand what you are saying. These are horrible issues. How does changing the way we teach all children, correct that problem?

    If we use alternate methods of teaching that better suits the way an individual brain works we create excitement in the student, excitement for learning. Everyone's brain "works" differently. You can describe something to me over the phone I can visualize and diagnose problems over the phone. My father needs pictures and drawings he just doesn't have that ability, but his problem solving skills are amazing. The alternative methods being used today address that, teach a child to think in a way that they as an individual can relate. Present 2,3,4 (however many) methods to arrive at the same conclusion and ultimately the child knows what works best for them and gravitates to that method. When I was in school it was "my way or the highway". I got correct answers all day long and got failed all day long. Why? because I didn't use "their method". Now they teach it the way I have always done it. You force a child to learn in a certain way and some percentage of those children WILL fail it's a fact that can be measured. My mother had to go into school and talk to the teachers and the principal about it, I didn't get marked wrong anymore. I guess what I am saying, if we get the child excited enough about learning we don't have to worry as much about the parents not doing anything for them. It's one idea...who knows if it will work.
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    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
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