It's their world now

Paul48

It's not the kids fault, and in a lot of cases, it's not the parents fault either. Parents are sending their kids to school for an education. The curriculum has been dumbed-down, so that no child gets left behind. The delinquents run the school, biding their time until their first jail stint. Their kids will graduate high school alongside a kid the has an IQ that will only ever be at a 7th grade level. If you have, or know a 5th grader.....ask him/her some simple multiplication questions. You might get something like 8x8 is about 60.......THAT GETS A TROPHY!!!!!

SlamDunk

That's true. My seven yr old grand niece demonstrated that she knew how to add and multiply but then when I asked her what she is learning in school these days, she said "ball Parking". WHAT!?! The 'Sisters of NO MERCY', would never have accepted ball parking! But it is a thing now!

DanHolohan

What is ball parking?

Robert O'Brien

Estimating the answer to a math question. Ex. 100+97 =200 Answering 197 would be marked wrong

DanHolohan

Future astronomers?

Rich_49

Future accountants I think ! Nobody will ever again be able to figure out how bad they're being robbed . Probably why they are breaking everyones' chops about homeschooling

KC_Jones

So you guys know down to the 1/16" how much pipe you will need for an install or do you "ball park" it? It's called being able to ensure an answer makes sense quickly. This is a common thing. I don't sit in engineering meetings doing complex calculations in the meeting, we ball park all the time and then do the detailed calcs later. This is actually a very important skill whether you realize it or not.

DanHolohan

They'll be good a figuring heat loss. I mean, following industry traditions and all.

ChrisJ

The engineers I work with like the new system. They say it teaches kids how to think and do problem solving rather than just learn something through repetition.

The only people I ever see attack it are people who don't understand it.

DanHolohan

So long to Measure Twice, Cut Once.

ChrisJ

DanHolohan said:

So long to Measure Twice, Cut Once.

I was taught, measure once, cut once.

Rich_49

What we used to call education or intelligence is now repetition ? Kinda scary when about 1" means 7/8" or 1 1/16" . I guess plumbing and heating systems are gonna be much uglier in about a decade . All those abouts really add up after awhile or a distance , watch the National debt !

SlamDunk

I was taught to know how to add, subtract, multiply and divide accurately and without a calculator. I wasn't even allowed to have a calculator until senior year of high school.

My 7 yr old niece has a COMPUTER! -and they get to "ball park" it? Isn't this backwards? Shouldn't we learn things by rote, then learn how to guess with a tolerance of accuracy?

Were the nuns wrong?

ChrisJ

Rich said:

What we used to call education or intelligence is now repetition ? Kinda scary when about 1" means 7/8" or 1 1/16" . I guess plumbing and heating systems are gonna be much uglier in about a decade . All those abouts really add up after awhile or a distance , watch the National debt !

The way we used to teach basic math was through repetition.

http://k12teacherstaffdevelopment.com/tlb/learning-by-repetition-does-it-work/


It teaches nothing more than to do that specific function.

ChrisJ

SlamDunk said:

I was taught to know how to add, subtract, multiply and divide accurately and without a calculator. I wasn't even allowed to have a calculator until senior year of high school.

My 7 yr old niece has a COMPUTER! -and they get to "ball park" it? Isn't this backwards? Shouldn't we learn things by rote, then learn how to guess with a tolerance of accuracy?

Where the nuns wrong?

Well the part in bold I'll answer.
YES. In many ways.


To the rest of your question, the proof is in the pudding and our children are learning faster, and more skills than before.

Rich_49

I wonder if that is the way the rest of the international community is teaching their future leaders . I'm guessing , NO , especially since many of them attend school for a longer period and they are surpassing the US in manufacturing , number of employed .

KC_Jones

SlamDunk said:

I was taught to know how to add, subtract, multiply and divide accurately and without a calculator. I wasn't even allowed to have a calculator until senior year of high school.

My 7 yr old niece has a COMPUTER! -and they get to "ball park" it? Isn't this backwards? Shouldn't we learn things by rote, then learn how to guess with a tolerance of accuracy?

Were the nuns wrong?

So you are criticizing that your niece is not only learning everything you did, but also learning how a computer works? In other words she is being taught more than you and that's bad? Also being taught how to THINK instead of just memorize? I have 3 kids in Elementary school right now. What they are learning in content AND volume is leaps and bounds beyond what any previous generation has had. Everyone that is actually INVOLVED in a child's schooling and pays attention is blown away by what is being taught. Most parents WON'T get involved and then want to criticize what is being taught when they themselves have no understanding of what is going on.

KC_Jones

Rich said:

I wonder if that is the way the rest of the international community is teaching their future leaders . I'm guessing , NO , especially since many of them attend school for a longer period and they are surpassing the US in manufacturing , number of employed .

So you are criticizing based on a guess? Guess again...we are modeling after other countries that surpassed us LONG ago. We are playing catch up because people like those commenting on this thread refuse to believe there is a better way to teach children. And now that it has been proven by how other countries are killing us in education you still refuse to believe it.

DanHolohan

KC, let's not make this personal. Please.

KC_Jones

Apologies Dan, I have a DEEP passion for education for everyone so I can get pretty heated when the discussion takes place.

DanHolohan

I understand, KC. This new section can turn volatile with emotions. Erin's taking a chance here and trusting us now that she's running the place. It would be great if we could respect her wishes and keep the conversations calm. Thanks.

Paul48

This is a case of someone with power and influence, not having a good understanding of what comes first....the cart, or the horse. And folks are afraid to say, you're a moron.

If you look at intelligent people, they all can "ballpark" and estimate. So...obviously we should teach that first. NO!!!!!! Intelligent people have that ability because they have a "working knowledge" of what they are "ball-parking" or estimating. It is merely a consequence, not a rule.

Teachers have very little time with students when they are young. Not memorizing multiplication tables, in favor of three months of "ball-parking" is ridiculous.

Maybe folks that feel this is such a good thing, don't understand that this is not being added to the three R's, it has replaced them.

Erin Holohan Haskell

DanHolohan said:

I understand, KC. This new section can turn volatile with emotions. Erin's taking a chance here and trusting us now that she's running the place. It would be great if we could respect her wishes and keep the conversations calm. Thanks.

Yes, please.

Erin Holohan Haskell

This discussion reminds me of an article my dad wrote about Search vs. Research.

Robert O'Brien

You beat me to it, Dan!!

Rich_49

With math like this , by the time you figured out how to design a system , 3 would be installed . Sorry , this is not better nor necessary , IMO . It is also not Ballparking . I'm kinda old and we learned math and ESTIMATION (ballparking) .

Children now fail math if they do not show the work , even when giving a correct answer . A correct answer is a correct answer no matter how it was arrived at . What is going on when a child whom gives a correct answer fails a test ?

SlamDunk

How does a question mark at the end equate to criticism? Actually, there are four question marks.

Time will tell if this is a better way to teach. I hope it is!

The brain is a muscle that needs rigorous exercise. The reliance on computers can lead to atrophy-that is what I have always been told . "What will happen if your calculator's battery dies in the middle of a test and you don't know the math? " -Is what adults have always asked me. Same question to a different device.

Ball parking is another term for "fudge factor" and "a good guess" and "close enough" ,and, it too seems to be a path to brain atrophy. It is human nature to take the path of least resistance and most humans will take that path.

So, same question for modern times: What happens when cyber terrorism shut down the grid for a month and cash registers don't work? Nor will computers? What happens when people cant log on to heatinghelp.com? facebook or twitter?

Steve Minnich

@KC_Jones - I admire your passion for education. I agree that our kids are being fed more information but are they absorbing more? It seems to me that we continue to rank lower than other industrialized nations in this regard. I do a fair amount of work in the inner city, including schools, and these kids are using textbooks that are 20 years old. You go to the northwest suburbs and kids are learning in state of the art educational centers. You want to talk politics, education is a good place to start. We should be making higher learning an opportunity for all, not just the ones in better neighborhoods.

My oldest daughter is a teacher and she is always trying to implement change because of standardized testing and other things that she knows infinitely more about than I ever will.

KC_Jones

I see my kids and others absorbing it. We as a society have learned that a child can absorb infinitely more than we ever gave credit for. I can still remember as a child thinking "why are we still going over this?" Too much time was spent on one topic then the children get bored and go into a shutdown. I hate to throw this into the mix, but hey why not. It's not just a school issue it really is a parent issue. I live in a community with great schools, BUT it is a very poor community. The school and teachers seriously couldn't be any better it's truly amazing. Our test scores are terrible. So what is the problem? What is the thing holding these kids back? What I and others are seeing is the parents. They don't prioritize the child's education. My wife and I are constantly trying to figure out how to get more parental involvement in the children's lives. We attend every PTO (PTA) meeting, I am the treasurer and communications officer for the PTO. My wife volunteers at the school (3 days a week) and works with other peoples children who need the help, but aren't getting it at home. We spend a lot of time discussing this topic. We send information home, but the parents literally throw ALL of it in the trash. They just don't want to seem to be bothered. We can't go to their house, we can't talk to them directly we can only suggest. I am honestly at my wits end. I see this fantastic school that has so much to offer and no one seems to want to take advantage of it. How does a society "fix" these types of problems? I wish I knew.

Paul48

I absolutely agree....there are better ways to teach children. None of those ways, include tossing the fundamentals. Once again, it is a misdiagnosis of the problems in our education system. Our students have fallen behind others in the world because we spend about 5 hours a day, 180 days a year in classrooms designed to teach them something. Our students were not pushed, or challenged with the old style of education. Making it easier, so you can show testing data that more students are succeeding does nothing to change that.

Steve Minnich

My experience says its about stopping cycles. Generational cycles passed on from parents to children and then on to the next generation, and on and on. It's about getting to one person or one child, one at a time.

KC_Jones

Stephen Minnich said:

My experience says its about stopping cycles. Generational cycles passed on from parents to children and then on to the next generation, and on and on. It's about getting to one person or one child, one at a time.

And this is why my wife volunteers, if we can help just one child it was worth it. This is a quote from one of the kids she works with weekly. "I didn't have lunch or dinner yesterday (Sunday) because Mommy was sleeping". First grader and she has a 2 year old brother in the house. I have a hard time believing she was sleeping "naturally" for that long.

Paul48

Unfortunately, we can't change that. All we can do, is provide(safe) places where every student is exposed to the best educational opportunity. "You can lead a horse to water..........

Rich_49

Somewhat related .
http://www.thefederalistpapers.org/us/why-schools-stopped-teaching-cursive-brilliantly-illustrated

DanHolohan

Great discourse, guys. Isn't it nice that we can talk to each other without shouting?

Paul48

@KC_Jones

I understand what you are saying. These are horrible issues. How does changing the way we teach all children, correct that problem?

NY_Rob

^ a good start would be ditching No Child Left Behind, Common Core and Race to the Top.
All were experiments that failed miserably and only produced good "test takers".

ChrisJ

Learning an awful lot in this thread.

Harvey Ramer

This discussion and others that will appear on this corner of the wall will have one universal truth. It is entirely possible for everyone to be wrong and equally impossible for everyone to be right.

Fascinating.

KC_Jones

Paul48 said:

@KC_Jones

I understand what you are saying. These are horrible issues. How does changing the way we teach all children, correct that problem?

If we use alternate methods of teaching that better suits the way an individual brain works we create excitement in the student, excitement for learning. Everyone's brain "works" differently. You can describe something to me over the phone I can visualize and diagnose problems over the phone. My father needs pictures and drawings he just doesn't have that ability, but his problem solving skills are amazing. The alternative methods being used today address that, teach a child to think in a way that they as an individual can relate. Present 2,3,4 (however many) methods to arrive at the same conclusion and ultimately the child knows what works best for them and gravitates to that method. When I was in school it was "my way or the highway". I got correct answers all day long and got failed all day long. Why? because I didn't use "their method". Now they teach it the way I have always done it. You force a child to learn in a certain way and some percentage of those children WILL fail it's a fact that can be measured. My mother had to go into school and talk to the teachers and the principal about it, I didn't get marked wrong anymore. I guess what I am saying, if we get the child excited enough about learning we don't have to worry as much about the parents not doing anything for them. It's one idea...who knows if it will work.