Cast Iron boiler/Monoflo setup changing to ECM and Zone Valves/Manifolds - Done!

Formerly

For what its worth, they do show an option to put the valve on the supply side as well, but one thing to note (whether intentional or not) is they left the circulator on the return in both.

njtommy

The pump should be between the boiler and the Valve for this type of setup. The pump needs to suck the water from both the system return and system supply to be able to mix the temps together.
Maybe a single pump piping design isn't right for your application. You could pipe it like this.

hot_rod

Hatterasguy said:

njtommy said:

The pump should be between the boiler and the Valve for this type of setup. The pump needs to suck the water from bother the system return and system supply to be able to mix the temps together.

.

The pressure at the valve is increased at both inlets if the circulator is on the supply side. Sure, the outlet absolute pressure is slightly higher than if the circulator is on the return, but I really don't see how the valve would be affected considering the inlet pressures are higher by the exact same amount.

The Δ across the valve is unchanged.

You want as close to equal pressure to H&C as possible, pulling through the valve helps assures that. The hot port cannot close completely and with med. or high head circs, pumping into the valve results in un-even temperature control.

We have received numerous calls from the field with this "thready" temperature issue.

Wednesday May 19 Coffee with Caleffi, one of our engineers from Italy will be talking about thermostatic valves again. Bring any questions you have, Claudio is on the team that designs these valves.

Formerly

I will be using a Grundfos Alpha, so there's that.

Formerly

I apologize for the long interlude, but I finally have been able to set aside enough time to put some work in to my house, and this is the first thing on the list!

As I re-read this thread, I have a few questions that should be fielded before I start!

First Question:
I am using the Taco zone relay box (EXP) version and also have the PC700-2 Outdoor Reset unit. I re-read the whole thread and saw someone suggest that the Taco iSeries-R 4-way valve can handle the ODR and also boiler return water protections. Would switching out the Caleffi Boiler protection valve with this one make more sense, especially considering my desire to keep the circulator on the supply side? Would I be duplicating the ODR functionality? How would this play in to my stub out for the eventual DHW line off of the main supply/return lines?

Second Question:
Planning for the DHW, I will be inserting stubs, but want to ensure the proper location/design. Would this crude diagram reflect proper location?

hot_rod

That should work fine as drawn. As I recall you have a cast iron boiler? Very small pressure drop in typical cast iron sectional boilers. Pumping into the boiler will work, and you are pumping away from the PONPC.

Is future DHW a tank type? If so, just a zone valve on that, no need for an additional pump. Use a tank with a large coil for lowest pressure drop and good flow rate for fast recovery.

I suggest mounting the expansion tank in a horizontal position with a couple bands around it to support the weight should it ever become waterlogged.

Amtrol does approve vertical or horizontal installation of Extrol tanks. At the installers discretion, of course

Formerly

Thank you very much for your reply, Rod. In the future, I will eventually migrate to a modcon and yes, a tank style domestic hot water heater. I always assumed you could "zone" a heater and give it priority, but it was also suggested that any zone valve will choke the flow to the heater which is generally high GPM which is why most plumbers suggest using a circulator.

In this drawing though, what prevents the DHW supply/return from getting induced flow during a call for a different zone? I would have to move the return to a "closely spaced T" scenario right next to its supply, right?

Also, when I switch to a modcon, the pump location might be an issue, right?

hot_rod

I guess it depends on how quickly you want to recover the DHW tank. With that pump, and an open, low pressure drop boiler and a large coil indirect, a 1" ZV with a 7.5 Cv will get you plenty of flow, maybe as much as the boiler can output.

Things may change depending on the type of mod con you may add, some run best with a dedicated circ, and maybe a hydroseparator. That could be piped into you design for future add in also if you knew which mod con.

A zone valve is 100% shutoff, when the valve is closed there is no flow to the indirect. You could add a hydronic spring check on the blue, return from the indirect to assure flow shut off on S & R.

Formerly

Here are a few starting pictures of my work area. The diagonal wall to the left is where I plan on mounting the manifolds.

Formerly

speaking of space, I really do not have any reason other than pipe length to spread this stuff out - rather than stacking 3 manifolds on that one diagonal wall which is 6ft wide by 7ft tall, would there be any reason why I shouldn't also utilize the wall that currently has that spool of wire hanging on it? from the supply on the boiler, that would be a distance of 16ft of 1" pipe with maybe 4 90's and 3 45's. I plan on erecting some 2x4 walls with the main 1" supply running through the studs, with regular pink insulation surrounding them in the bays, and then mount 3/4 ply on the front and mount the mani's on that, with the pex runs surface mounting on the ply. this keeps things neat. any downside to this idea?

EDIT:

changed plans, I plan on running the supply/return on the surface above the manifolds. There's no problem with this design right? (see pic below)

Formerly

forgive the crude example, but as far as pipe location, the supply/return can be piped in such a manner, right?

SWEI

Yes, but...

Reverse return would be better.

hot_rod

A few different piping options for reverse return.






And other piping ideas here

http://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/coll_attach_file/idronics_19_na.pdf

hot_rod

RR in my mind is intended for systems that have manifolds or emitters scattered a fair distance apart around a building. The goal is to try and get fairly consistent flow resistance.

A ∆P circ in proportional differential pressure control mode is a nice match for RR.

I suppose if one were really anal they would stagger the pex connections on a manifold, supply on one end, return on the opposite for RR

hot_rod

Why waste people's time and effort on the theoretical?

Because understanding the theory helps us make informed decisions. I don't see learning, discussing, sharing knowledge and findings as a waste of time.

Or there would be no need for heating help.com

Formerly

the distance of 1" pipe between the manifolds is roughly 6 feet, so I think I can live with that Delta. Would it be completely ridiculous overkill to throw some quicksetters next to the zone valves hot rod?

hot_rod

The OuickSetter serve multiple functions, one being the ability to dial in an exact flow rate, AKA a circuit setter.

This is a manual balance valve, say for instance you have 3 installed to various manifolds. Start the pump, open all zones and balance to the flow each manifold needs at design.

Now if one zone shuts down, the flowmeter will read a different flow, this type of manual valve does not have the ability to make it's own corrections.

PICV pressure independent control valve, are another type of balance valve that respond and adjust to always maintain a fixed flow.

Manual valves may balance or limit flow to a floor of a building for example, with a PICV at each heat emitter to keep required flow consistent. PICV can also adjust to flow change provided by a ∆P circulator.

One other function is to give you a visual flow indicator.

As far a a balancing device you have sufficient balance ability at the manifold, loop by loop. You also have a flow visual, for a time, until the windows get cruded over

If you want or need to see flow rates to confirm or monitor at various flow rates, then the Quicksetter is an option.

Unique to the QuickSetter is that the the meter only reads when you pull the ring. Also the flow does not go through the window, so you will be able to use and read the flow without worrying about the window getting clouded or dirty, down the road.

So, to make a long story long, I don't see that you NEED a Quicksetter, anymore than you need heated seats in your car

But if you like additional components for watching your system heat, or keeping your butt warm in your car, this is one option for your hydronic system.

Formerly

Thanks for clearing that up Rod. I think I will save the cash.

As far as my design goes, I also think I will eschew using plywood and studs and just go with unistrut/clamps. Any guys prefer doing it one way or another?

Hilly

Any way you choose to do it can look good or bad. It's all in the planning - that part I think you have a handle on. So just pick a product, lay it out and you'll come out just fine. I do like wood walls just because i find I dont plan the electrical all the time and wood makes it easier. Plus I use more armoured cable than conduit. Conduit and strut work great together though.

If you plan to insulated the pipes unistrut is a wise choice with cushion clamps.

If you put up a wood wall and have time paint it first... It looks way nicer when finished.

Formerly

good point with the electric! I didn't even think of doing conduit. thats a fantastic idea and I think it would look cleaner.

Tinman

I use as much conduit as possible, try to keep the whips 4' and less.

Tinman

Conduit I did on a job a LONG time ago.

ratio

If I were doing lots of valves/pumps, I might consider a 4" x 4" wire way. You can make them as long as you need, even wrap around corners, tees & whatnot. You'd have to plan ahead a little, since you wouldn't want the piping to cross over the door, but it gives it that professional look.

Tinman

I agree. That is my preference now too. Much easier than bending pipe.

Formerly

That stuff is beautiful when it's up - I remember seeing it used in a machine room in Manhattan.

I'm on to my first step which is drainage. I have no where to drain and flush lines into and I want a layer of protection for the remainder of the basement once finished. I've decided to use driveway channel to isolate the whole room from the finished section. I also have to dig out a sump pit and cut some concrete.

Formerly

Progress...

Formerly

Just have to run the electric from the panel and I'm done with the sump pump.

Also, I asked a question that might be showing my lack of knowledge, but earlier in this thread there was a bit of a discussion describing how the (caleffi) boiler protection 3 way valve doesn't like being pumped in-to and prefers to be pumped away from. I think I might be facing an issue where I have to return the valve due to a threading issue. Would replacing it with a unit that is sensor controlled, a- la a Taco iSeries-R 4-way valve? Would this be silly considering I already have a Taco PC700-2 Outdoor Reset unit?

Formerly

Question - would you guys wind up using this valve considering the threads on the nipples seem to bottom out? I can hand tighten the press fittings all the way up on the threads without it binding - to show the fittings aren't the problem, I have one of the press fittings on a common brass nipple above the valve. I called Caleffi regarding this and they said they haven't received any complaints so all is normal.... and if I want to be sure, to go buy some loctite 565 and use that instead of tape. I'm a bit wary. Any input Rod?

Formerly

Bump

njtommy

try it and see if it leaks. Worst case Teflon and dope it. It looks like you have unions on there so your good you can always pull it back apart even tho it's a pain in the but.

Formerly

OK, update time. Thanks to everyone that helped me get this far. There were a few prerequisites that needed to be addressed before I started on my heating. I added the floor drain and the sump pump and have it running under my lawn to a pop up head near the street. I flushed up my gas and my hot/cold water lines and moved my water heater in preparation for the finished section of basement. I also painted the "mechanical room" white to brighten it up. I filed for rebates on the newer wifi thermostats and of course they wanted to check my installation for the rebate so I had to hotwire all the new gear into my existing installation. So I have 2 circ zones shoehorned into a zone-valve taco box. Fun stuff.

I changed the layout very slightly due to some problem I ran into reversing the Caleffi manifolds (the mounting brackets get in the way.) By moving the water heater I gain more room to space out the heating materials for a neat appearance. I also started to run my PAP lines to each rad following the steel beam in my house. It's starting to come together!

I have to make some more plywood brackets tomorrow and paint them for the remaining manifolds and run the remaining line. I will have to delay the last manifold and add it in once I come around and finish the basement this summer. Here are some pictures, and thanks again for the help thus far!

Formerly

Hey what program do you guys use to draw up a quick schematic? I am up to the primary piping and want to make sure I don't forget anything before I start putting it all together. Thanks!

hot_rod

nice work.

Visio is a commonly used program for documentation. We have many stencils at our website, the ones you see in Idronics, both piping and wiring.

Also, you can order, or switch the manifolds to have the branches facing up. Maybe save some pex tubing.

Formerly

Thanks HotRod for your suggestion! I mocked something up and I know I am borderline spamming this thread, but I wanted to make sure I am not missing anything before starting to install the primary piping. This is the diagram, can anyone find any mistakes or improvements?

a few reminders:
Grundfos Alpha circ
CI Boiler
Mani's lead to CI Baseray Rads/CI Rads
1" Piping

hot_rod

schematic looks fine. I was thinking that you could save a few hundred feet of pex by piping up from the manifolds. What problem did you have flipping them?

Formerly

Thanks for your rapid response! I am on purpose going overboard with the ball valves so that if something needs to be replaced, I only need to purge a small section. I am trying to "pimp" out this build, because I don't ever want to reach a point where I think "ugh, I wish I did this "

I didn't want to flip them per-se, I originally wanted to reverse them horizontally so the ports were on the right side. I ran into issues where the bracket got in the way of the tubing for the end pairs. I chose not to flip them because I wanted to defer sediment falling into the windows for as long as i could. I am expecting with all the cast iron in my system, there might be elevated levels of magnetite sludge which might prematurely cloud up the viewports.

Also, is it wise to have to purge the system through the circulator?

Formerly

I'm done, for now, a big thank you to all of you who commented and helped steer me along the right path!

I still have to add the outdoor reset and wire up the sensor location as well as continue finishing my basement enough to run lines to the last manifold. I also have pipe insulation to put on but wanted to get a clean picture of it before covering it up.

The North side of my house is a long ways away and I read that the sensor wire for the reset can be affected by Romex, etc crossing it's path... Could I tuck it on a North facing section of wall (small bump out) on the east wall of my house? It wouldn't get direct sun, and would reduce the length of wire immensely. Maybe I'll take a pic.

Speaking of pics, here's some of my final product. Thanks again!