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Least Destructive New Heating System? Hot Water or Air?

nmquirk
nmquirk Member Posts: 23
edited March 2016 in THE MAIN WALL
I'm having some issues with my current steam heating system. The pipe above my dining room is leaking. It started as a brown stain from the iron deposits and is now starting to bulge. The boiler is almost 30 years old, and the piping is probably as old as the house (100 years). I'd rather get it replaced with a whole new system, either forced hot water or forced air. The house was built in 1916, so I'd have to do mini-ducts if I went forced air (thin walls). I plan on feeding the system with the gas line I already have coming in.

I'm sure there will be some floor and wall tearing, but I'm curious to know how much, and should I really not put too much weight on this aspect.

The annoying part is, the previous owners did a renovation in 2009 but left the old steam system. Not that I have anything against steam but they didn't replace any of the pipes, values, air vents or radiators.

The other alternative is to fix the leaky pipe and buy a new boiler, but is that really worth it? I have to mention that I live in Massachusetts where we're offered significant rebates for switching to a hot water or forced air system. They don't provide any intensives for replacing a steam boiler.

Thank you

Comments

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,592
    The incentive for replacing a steam boiler is not having to rip out an entire system.

    You'll find this is far cheaper, incentive or not.

    There's no reason to replace the entire system. Steam pipes and radiators are general in fine shape, even after 100+ years.

    Get someone in there that knows steam well and let them fix the system. Charles Garrity may be in your area.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,318
    They do not offer any rebates in mass to change your system. They do offer $1900 to replace a 30 plus tear old steam boiler with a new more efficient one.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • nmquirk
    nmquirk Member Posts: 23
    edited March 2016
    Why don't they list that then? http://www.masssave.com/en/residential/offers/gas-networks-hehewh, or is that the

    * Integrated Water heater/Condensing Boiler

    Someone from Mass Save came out last year (this was not a full audit) and said there are no incentives to replace a steam boiler. Best thing was a 0% loan for a new steam boiler.
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,318
    They just sent me the new rebates I will find a link and post it.it starts april 1st.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,796
    In general, steam piping lasts a long time. When we take steam piping apart we usually find little, if any, deterioration. Your leak may be coming from a bad joint, a section that was off-pitch or even loose packing on a radiator valve. These are all easily fixed.

    If anyone would know the rebate availability in MA, Charlie would. We'd be interested to know who told you you'd get a rebate for tearing out steam. Looks like false advertising.

    Bottom line: Fix the leak. Keep the steam. Get Charlie to look at it- he's one of the best.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    SWEIKC_Jones
  • nmquirk
    nmquirk Member Posts: 23
    This has been super informative and I appreciate it a lot. Sorry to mislead. A young man from Mass Save came out last year to change my bulbs. I was asking about new boilers and he said that Massachusetts doesn't give rebates for steam boilers. He said they're energy efficiency is so low the program won't allow rebates for them. Thus, when I said that MA gives rebates to changing the entire heating system, essentially that's it would be for me.

    Total misunderstanding.
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,318
    He was wrong. A new steam boiler needs to exceed 82 % efficiency and be listed as such by the manufacturer to qualify.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • nmquirk
    nmquirk Member Posts: 23
    Thank you. First time home owner, bought in August and still trying to figure things out.
  • nmquirk
    nmquirk Member Posts: 23
    Also, does it really have to be 30+? I'm at 27 now.
    Mike
  • vaporvac
    vaporvac Member Posts: 1,520
    edited March 2016
    Perhaps you could tell us more about your current system and include some pics of the rads and the boiler showing all the surrounding piping. You mention vents, so I assume it's a one-pipe system which would require replacing EVERYTHING.

    I suspect it's packing on a valve stem that's causing the leak, as a pipe leak is very rare. I had the same and it's a DIY job to fix. You assume the stain is rust, but it could also be from the wood joists and the moisture is causing the plaster (or drywall) to separate from the lathe. I also don't know why anyone would replace valves and/or rads unless damaged, and the valves and even traps can generally be fixed. Often these elements were proprietary to the system and helped it work efficiently. This isn't to say your venting on the mains and/or rads doesn't need improvement or your rad vents may not work. The latter can often be cleaned by boiling in vinegar.

    When replacing my boiler, the pros here suggested going with a wet-based boiler with a gas conversion burner. As a HO, I did what was suggested and am currently getting 87% plus EFF numbers and these do not reflect the whole story as there are fewer stand-by losses with these boilers. It was also sized to the radiation. You could also look into staging the boiler with a two-stage gas valve if it's a larger system. Piping insulation is essential.

    Replacing a system because of a leak is like building a new house because you don't like the current colour. Imagine a leak in a HW system!!! We read about quite a few over the last couple of years. Not to encourage HA which has the worst comfort level. You can always add the small system AC at a later point if you feel you need it.
    Nothing beats steam heat, and noone can do it better than Charles. You are lucky to be in his service area if he's available.
    C
    Two-pipe Trane vaporvacuum system; 1466 edr
    Twinned, staged Slantfin TR50s piped into 4" header with Riello G400 burners; 240K lead, 200K lag Btus. Controlled by Taco Relay and Honeywell RTH6580WF
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,318
    Yes it needs to be 30 plus. The people at Massave take the serial number of the boiler. Perhaps with some relative minor repairs you could be much happier with the system you have. That would be the least destructive to your home and budget for sure.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
    SWEI
  • nmquirk
    nmquirk Member Posts: 23
    I'll post pictures later this evening. To vaporvac point, yes, it's one pipe. I don't believe it's at the packing. I added new graphite packing 2-3 months ago, and have felt around the connection for moisture. I would guess it's the condensate leaking through the other end of the connector, opposite the radiator.

    There were a few evenings this winter, where it sounded like the whole piping mesh was thrashing. That is causing me to think it could have caused some damage which I'm experiencing now.

    I had to get two guys in the day after I moved in just to get the boiler running (the prior owners didn't keep us with maintenance). That may have left a bad taste in my mouth, and I shouldn't let it ruin my judgement. You're right, making such a drastic change sounds crazy.
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,476
    Steam systems are remarkably reliable.

    My house was built in 1918 so it's almost 100 years old, it has a single pipe steam system that has needed repair ONCE in the 35 years (burner controller) I've lived here. I did replace the boiler with a gas fired system when the oil tank started to weep.

    The apartment I had before had steam and it never needed repair in the 11 years I lived there while I lived there (I did occasionally have to brush the stack switch down on that system. Both boilers were cleaned out every year. Over the years I did replace the pressuretrol and the washers on the sight glass as well as changing air vents from time to time.

    Find out whats wrong before going through the expense of tearing it all out.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
    Charlie from wmassadasilva
  • vaporvac
    vaporvac Member Posts: 1,520
    edited March 2016
    nmquirk said:

    I'll post pictures later this evening. To vaporvac point, yes, it's one pipe. I don't believe it's at the packing. I added new graphite packing 2-3 months ago, and have felt around the connection for moisture. I would guess it's the condensate leaking through the other end of the connector, opposite the radiator.
    I don't understand this. Do you have two pipes going into your rads?

    There were a few evenings this winter, where it sounded like the whole piping mesh was thrashing. That is causing me to think it could have caused some damage which I'm experiencing now.

    I had to get two guys in the day after I moved in just to get the boiler running (the prior owners didn't keep us with maintenance). That may have left a bad taste in my mouth, and I shouldn't let it ruin my judgement. You're right, making such a drastic change sounds crazy.


    Your words, not mine!
    :smiley:
    Two-pipe Trane vaporvacuum system; 1466 edr
    Twinned, staged Slantfin TR50s piped into 4" header with Riello G400 burners; 240K lead, 200K lag Btus. Controlled by Taco Relay and Honeywell RTH6580WF
  • nmquirk
    nmquirk Member Posts: 23
    edited March 2016
    The second picture is the one that's leaking. I also included pictures of other radiators to show their condition. As well as a picture of the stain itself.












  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,318
    Those valves and vents need some love for sure.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • nmquirk
    nmquirk Member Posts: 23
    edited March 2016
    Agreed. :-) I was watching the rad in question this morning and there was water pooling around the nut that I added packing to. My reservoir has a slow leak, so I have to drain it every couple of days. I may have neglected my duty on a cold day which caused the excess water.

    This is where my frustration is coming from. With vents and valves like that, clinks and clanks all day/night and a reservoir I need to drain, and now a damn water stain in the ceiling, I'M STEAMING! :)
    vaporvac
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,318
    So hire a professional and fix the system?
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,592
    @nmquirk

    My steam system is totally silent.
    It took a lot of work, and tinkering but it literally makes no noise.

    There's no clanging, or banging or hissing. In fact, the gas valve is the loudest part of the system.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,318
    Do you think hot water or forced air will give over a hundred years of service with no repairs? Every system that exists in a home wears out or needs up keep.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • vaporvac
    vaporvac Member Posts: 1,520
    Now you' ve piqued my interest again. You say you have a reservoir....you probably don't need that, but you do need to fix the leak on the shut-off which isn't a hard thing to do. I think we could use some pics of you boiler and its piping. Since the boiler is presently in OK condition (I think?) perhaps you could fix the "fiddly" stuff" first. Seriously, @Charlie from wmass is one of the best. Perhaps he could give a look see and fix any glaring issues and give you a primer in taking care of the boiler and show you some things you can fix yourself (ie. cleaning the vents, etc.) over the course of the Summer.

    Here's the thing, any system needs maintenance, and it looks like yours need a little TLC. P.S. Judging from the plaster swirls on the ceiling, I'm guessing this isn't a new leak. Pretty floors, btw. Perhaps you could wrap a rag around the leak and put it in a bowl, so it doesn't continue to drip on the floors and ceiling.
    Two-pipe Trane vaporvacuum system; 1466 edr
    Twinned, staged Slantfin TR50s piped into 4" header with Riello G400 burners; 240K lead, 200K lag Btus. Controlled by Taco Relay and Honeywell RTH6580WF
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,592
    Please,
    Call Charlie.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Jean-David Beyer
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    What resevoir is leaking and causing you to have to drain it every couple days? A picture of that please. It sounds to me like the radiator vents need to be replaced, a cheap and painless job, the radiator valves either need to be repacked or the packing nut tightened up, another easy fix, the radiators need to be checked to make sure they have a slight pitch towards the supply valves, so condensate can drain back and help reduce any radiator noises and the mains and horizontal piping in the basement need to be checked to make sure they have some pitch, radiator run-outs back to the mains and mains pitched towards the vertical pipe that drops down to the wet return that runs back to the boiler. That should help eliminate the noises. Also make sure the boiler water is clean and that the Pressuretrol is working so that pressure stays between .5PSI Cut-in and a differential of "1" for a Cut-out of 1.5PSI. Take the pigtail (looped pipe) that the Pressuretrol is mounted on off and clean it to make sure it is not clogged. I'd like to see what you are calling the resevoir also.
  • nmquirk
    nmquirk Member Posts: 23
    I wasn't expecting maintenance free. I just didn't know if at some point it's just time for a complete over-haul. I'm just trying to figure stuff out. Luckily, forums like this exist.
    Charlie from wmass
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,592
    nmquirk said:

    I wasn't expecting maintenance free. I just didn't know if at some point it's just time for a complete over-haul. I'm just trying to figure stuff out. Luckily, forums like this exist.

    Have a look at this link to pictures of the work I've done on my steam system since 2011.

    https://picasaweb.google.com/thetube0a3/Boiler?authkey=Gv1sRgCImUxIqv9436MQ#

    When that started, I didn't know how to solder a pipe, or make a threaded joint. I knew absolutely nothing. By the end, I could run my own gas piping, solder water piping and install a steam boiler. Some of it I learned from my dad helping me, most of it from this forum and Dan's books.

    It was baptism by fire because I had just bought a house with serious problems and had little fundage but luckily it all worked out. Then I got bored, and started trying to perfect things and I'm still at it though I'm running out of things I can try.

    If you're interested in learning this yourself and doing the work, the first step is posting a ton of pictures here and asking questions, even ones you think may be dumb.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Charlie from wmassTinman
  • nmquirk
    nmquirk Member Posts: 23
    I don't really know terminology, but the reservoir intake is leaking into the reservoir, so I have to drain about a 1-2 liters of water out every 2-3 days. It seems to fill faster when the boiler kicks on more often.

    Also, the PSI gauge doesn't appear to work. At least, I haven't seen the needle move.
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,318
    Do not worry about the gauge at this point. It is either clogged and broken or the pressuretrol is set where it belongs and you are a building less than two pounds of pressure. If the reservoir you're talking about is at the front of the boiler and is cast iron and you drain it with a lever handle down into a bucket that's probably a low water cutoff. If water is increasingly coming back to your system when you are not adding it manually you are there have a clogged return or a supply valve that is not shutting off completely or an automatic feed that is malfunctioning. The 4th option is that you have a tankless coil on your boiler and it's leaking through. Do you know a tankless coil looks like? Photographs of the boiler itself from 10 to 12 feet away from it are really what we're looking for.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • nmquirk
    nmquirk Member Posts: 23
    @ChrisJ, I really appreciate that last response. And yeah, seems like I'll be following a similar path as you. :-) I don't mind looking dumb, I'm just happy to be able to get answers. I was thinking of moving away from steam because I thought there was a lack of help/resources.
  • nmquirk
    nmquirk Member Posts: 23
    @Charlie from wmass, unfortunately no on knowing what a tankless coil is. Assuming you have the availability, I'll give you a call soon. I just need to figure out my schedule and what days I can take off of work so we can figure a good day.
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,318
    If you let me know what part of the state you're in I can check my schedule for when I'm going to be in that area also.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • nmquirk
    nmquirk Member Posts: 23
    I'm in Leominster
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,318
    I will be available this Friday morning or two weeks from this Friday morning.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
    TinmanZman
  • nmquirk
    nmquirk Member Posts: 23
    @Charlie from wmass, I just sent you an e-mail.
    TinmanvaporvacCharlie from wmass
  • vaporvac
    vaporvac Member Posts: 1,520
    Do you have a separate WH? If so, you probably DON'T have a tankless coil. A Tcoil heats the domestic HW from the boiler. They sometimes leak.
    Two-pipe Trane vaporvacuum system; 1466 edr
    Twinned, staged Slantfin TR50s piped into 4" header with Riello G400 burners; 240K lead, 200K lag Btus. Controlled by Taco Relay and Honeywell RTH6580WF