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Hot Rod, Hydraulic separator

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cutter
cutter Member Posts: 292
Hot rod, on the hydraulic separator 54950A 1 1/2" pipe thread there is a brass plug at the top the top of the separator in line with the supply going through the separator. I though I saw in one of the Caleffi trade journals a temperature gauge in that port. If I was not seeing things where can I get the well and temperature gauge?

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  • bob eck
    bob eck Member Posts: 930
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    Are you missing a number on the Caleffi item?
    Caleffi has a 694045 Temperature pocket well 1/2" strait thread fits 1" - 1 1/4" - 1 1/2" hydro separators or better yet 688003A Temp gauge with pocket well. Call your local F W Webb P&H wholesaler or call my branch Allentown PA 484-488-3669 or 484-225-9055
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,476
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    As bob mentioned, it is a straight thread
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • cutter
    cutter Member Posts: 292
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    bob eck said:

    Are you missing a number on the Caleffi item?

    Caleffi has a 694045 Temperature pocket well 1/2" strait thread fits 1" - 1 1/4" - 1 1/2" hydro separators or better yet 688003A Temp gauge with pocket well. Call your local F W Webb P&H wholesaler or call my branch Allentown PA 484-488-3669 or 484-225-9055

    I saw this on the supply house site, but what are the inside metric thread for? http://www.supplyhouse.com/Caleffi-694045-Temperature-Pocket-Well-for-1-to-1-1-2-Hydro-Separator. And with the insulation around the separator would the above well and a temperature gauge even work. I am curious as to what your 688003A looks like.

    I bought a quick setter flow control with the temp gauge and the difference between the temp probe and the inside diameter of the well is awful. The hole in the well is a strong 25/32" Most likely metric. The probe is .354 thousands, that is about a 7/32" difference in size. Other wells and probes are only a few thousandths difference in size.
  • cutter
    cutter Member Posts: 292
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    Hot Rod, Could I get a little product support. The well that Bob mentioned above the 694045 with 1/2" straight threads also has inside metric thread. what are those threads for? What temperature gauge works with this well or are all Caleffi temperature gauges the same, one size fits all?
    The caleffi 688003A temperature gauge and well that bob mentioned above I did see on supply house's site. They did not mention if the external threads were straight or 1/2" pipe thread. I am guessing 1/2" pipe so that would not work with the separator. Am I correct or are they 1/2" straight 13 threads per inch or 20 threads per inch?
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,476
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    Officially that is a straight threats and should be sealed with a gasket fitting. Actually a 1/2 npt threads into it, use Loctite or teflon tape and it seals fine. Just tried all these 1/2 npt options on the bench.

    How about that vintage Heatway gauge!

    We did come up with this NA10425 gauge well for a Viessmann boiler customer that wanted to use one or our I-Solar control sensors into the boiler. It allows a 6 mm sensor to slide in and capture with the rubber "keeper" It is a straight thread, gasket fitting.

    6 mm is about 1/4" and is a typical sensor size on most mod cons, or any control of European origin.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    ericmmff
  • Hilly
    Hilly Member Posts: 428
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    @hot rod Do you get to just play with 'stuff' all day. You're tinkering is always a pleasure to see.
  • cutter
    cutter Member Posts: 292
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    Hot Rod, When I first looked at the separator it was dark in the area. I took the plug out and did some measuring. The separator hole is the same outside diameter as 1/2" pipe and is 14 straight threads per inch and pipe is 14 TPI tapered. I can see now how pipe thread will seal in that separator with a lot of tape. I screwed a well into the separator and the hex on the well bottomed out on the separator.

    Do you know what temperature gauge Caleffi suggests for their well?

    Below is a couple of pictures. One is what I had planned to do on my return lines. I already have all those brass tee's and gauges. But after seeing Caleffi's Quick setter flow control with gauge I thought it would look a little cleaner with Caleffi's product, instead of the brass Tee's. When I started buying those Tee's and gauges I did not know about anything else. I was not introduced to Caleffi.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,476
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    Correct you are, so it happens 1/2 NPT and 1/2 BSP are the same 14 pitch, so they do thread together easily. The BSP lacks the taper so we Loctite all BSP connections. Actually pretty much all BSP connections are "glued" together. Take apart a ball or any brass valve and you will see a Loctite seal. There is a Lactate formula for this application, assembling hydraulic and pneumatic straight threads.

    I have seen them installed without 6 wraps of teflon tape :)

    What do you want to put into the sep? If it is a typical mod con boiler sensor, that is a 6 mm, so the stainless well in the pic works NA10090. It will require a Loctite assembly.

    You could get a 1/2" Honeywell or similar well that accepts the older style cap. tube sensors.

    Or a 1/2 brass bushing and add a Petes ™ plug.

    Also here is a custom well I made from a brass nipple that would accept 3 of the 6mm sensors if you want multiple functions from one well.

    I'm not sure what that thread is in the catalog well 694045, I suspect it is for a metric size T&P gauge. I have seen some on Euro boilers that look like around a 3/8 pipe thread size.

    I'd be glad to rig up whatever you need for the project.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    ericmmff
  • cutter
    cutter Member Posts: 292
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    Hot Rod, All I wanted for the separator is a temperature gauge. I did not know that straight pipe threads existed. If I did I had forgotten.
    Maybe I should just use one of the wells I have that I will not be using because I bought the temp gauge option on the quick setters. I asked a friend about making me a well with straight threads that I could seal with a gasket but so far he is not real interested.

    I am buying parts now for my wood/ oil system that I posted on another post. I want to get it done this early summer.

    I think any sensors That I need I can put on the wood boiler. I do plan on putting some ports on the supply manifold just in case I did not think of something. I am still learning.

    Thanks for your offer on making up something for me. I am pretty sure I can get by on what I have or possibly make something if I know what to make.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,399
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    Teflon tape works fine. Here's a pic from a recent install with one. We generally use the port to connect to the expansion tank as in the photo.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,476
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    Like Bob showed, about 4 wraps of the heavy mil teflon tape generally does fine.

    Any 1/2 NPT, off the shelf gauge will screw in. Or if you prefer the gauge in a well, the 6 mm well we have in the catalog will accept a standard, 1/4" stem gauge. Although it will not be screwed into the well.

    All the major gauge mans have 1/2 NPT tridicators with back mount if you want pressure and temperature readings on one gauge. Those too could be screwed right into the Sep, or via a well.

    In a low flow zone like a sep, no reason you couldn't screw a gauge directly in without a well, they read quicker without the well. The well allows removal and replacement without getting wet :)
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    iceberg29
  • cutter
    cutter Member Posts: 292
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    Ironman said:

    Teflon tape works fine. Here's a pic from a recent install with one. We generally use the port to connect to the expansion tank as in the photo.

    I thought that port was just for a gauge, and the expansion tank had to be plumbed in to a return line at the bottom of the separator. Thought for some reason the tank or system would not function properly if done differently.

    I have noticed in the Caleffi trade journals and in other install pictures like yours the bladder expansion tank is close to the floor or maybe 3 or 4 feet up from the floor. Could the tank be hung from the ceiling and be above the separator and piping? I would like to hang it in a similar method as the old tank as in the picture. I do not have a lot of room on the floor near the boilers.

  • cutter
    cutter Member Posts: 292
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    Hot Rod I will, as you and Bob suggested, just use teflon tape on a well. I don't like getting wet. On the boilers I plan on using the all in one temperature and pressure.gauge. On the wood boiler supply pipe I thought about putting another separate pressure and temperature gauge. The temperature gauge in a well and the pressure gauge after a ball valve.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,476
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    Yes I like separate gauges for pressure and temperature. you can buy various levels of quality in separate gauges. For some reason the combination gauges all seem to be the lower quality variety and questionable accuracy.

    A lot of installers are going with digital temperature gauges, I find them easier to read at a glance.
    Azel makes a nice dual temperature gauge that reads two temperatures and also reads delta T.

    Some of the wood boiler tinkers build custom temperature display boxes with fluid temperatures and flue gas reading to dial in best burn performance.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • cutter
    cutter Member Posts: 292
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    Hot Rod, You are full of good ideas. I did not know they existed. I checked Supply House and they stock them. Neither Azel or supply House mentioned wells for the sensors. Looks like you could mount a sensor outside to see what temperature you are competing with. Thanks for the idea
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,476
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    Yes, a sensor strapped tightly to a copper pipe and insulated, for example, will read the same as the sensor in a well in that pipe.

    Nice thing with strap on sensors is that you can move them to different locations for troubleshooting or adjusting system balance.

    Usually delta T, variable speed, and injection mixing circ pumps are controlled by strap on sensors.

    For a tank, I prefer a deep well to get the sensor well into the fluid. If you want to read multiple levels of a tank I prefer sensors in a well.

    Another nice feature of the Azel is they can be powered by the onboard battery, or a 24 VAC line from a transformer or relay box.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • cutter
    cutter Member Posts: 292
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    Hot Rod, Looks like a well for a Trerice or a Weiss vertical thermometer will work for the Azel sensor. Just need to make sure there is enough vertical room for the well being used. I figure on using at least one of the Azels.
    If Ironman does not get back would you be willing to share your opinion on if the expansion tank could be hung from the overhead similar to what is pictured. I am guessing now it is mounted low so it is easy to be checked for empty pressure.
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,399
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    No problem mounting it above the boiler.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,476
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    Here is the best option for thermal wells. These are the typical Honeywell @ 3/8" ID thermal wells, about 6" long.

    The Azel sensors are a tad under 3/8" so they slide in. If you use a smaller diameter sensor, slip a piece of 3/8" copper into the well and reduce it so the 6mm, or smaller tekmar sensors fit tighter. A squirt of thermal grease in the bottom.

    No need for the sensor to be a snug fit, they just seize in the well after time. As long as the tip of the sensor contacts the brass well you will be fine.

    This is a 500 gallon tank that I an converting to a vertical tank for my solar, wood boiler, mod con buffer tank.

    Solar, wood, mod con input. Dhw and radiant as loads. Piped as a two pipe with large diameter headers for hydraulic separation.

    Don't look too close at the welds :)
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • cutter
    cutter Member Posts: 292
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    Ironman said:

    No problem mounting it above the boiler.

    Thanks Bob
  • cutter
    cutter Member Posts: 292
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    Hot Rod I did not think about the Honeywell, wells because they are so long. The Honeywell wells I have are for an aquastat and the well below the pipe threads are 3 inches long. That is longer than I can use for this thermometer aplication. The Weiss and Trerice wells have a probe of inch and a half just a tad long but installation easily modified. On the sensors with a wire coming out of them I had thought of putting a smidge of high temp grease on them,

    Don't look too close at the welds :) I tried to enlarge the picture. when I did the picture was blurry, so the welds will pass if they don't leak.
  • cutter
    cutter Member Posts: 292
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    cutter said:

    Hot Rod I did not think about the Honeywell, wells because they are so long. The Honeywell wells I have are for an aquastat and the well below the pipe threads are 3 inches long. That is longer than I can use for this thermometer aplication. The Weiss and Trerice wells have a probe of inch and a half just a tad long but installation easily modified. On the sensors with a wire coming out of them I had thought of putting a smidge of high temp grease on them,

    Don't look too close at the welds :) I tried to enlarge the picture. when I did the picture was blurry, so the welds will pass if they don't leak. I could not find the smiley face.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,476
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    I just threw HW out as an example, you can find all sorts of sizes, materials, and lengths for wells online.

    If need be build your own. A copper stub out and male adapter. File or drill the stop out of the adapter and slide the stub to what ever length you need.

    Leave the outside portion long to extend beyond any insulation jacketing/

    Inside you can reduce the diameter with different sized tube. Model shops sell this small brass tube if you want to get an exact fit to an odd sized thermistor.

    This one I built to take 4- 6mm sensors in a 3/4 port.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • cutter
    cutter Member Posts: 292
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    Hot Rod, I did not know there were so many different wells out there. Your shop built one with the pipe thread to sweat is a pretty good idea. I had a real labor intensive way of accomplishing the same thing. Thanks
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
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    Pasco makes wells to fit 3/8" probes in both 1/2" MNPT and 3/4" sweat. Generally less than $10.
  • cutter
    cutter Member Posts: 292
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    SWEI, I googled Pasco and did not find anything. There is only one HVAC distributor in the Twin Cities, MN. area that will sell to me. So I would only have access to what they stock or can get. I buy a lot of stuff from Supply house and they don't sell everyone's stuff. Thanks for the suggestion though
  • cutter
    cutter Member Posts: 292
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    Swei, I must have done something wrong the first time. I googled again and got their home page. Thanks