Steam radiator issues

madmaggie

I recently purchased a home and this winter have realized that one steam radiator is not heating. It stays cold when the heat is on, however, if I remove the air valve, it immediately gets hot silently and very quickly. I replaced the valve, however have the same problem. The radiator will only heat when the air valve is removed. After further investigation, it is apparent that the radiator was moved in the past and likely incorrectly. I can see where the old line would have run - now, there is a long copper pipe leading off the main pipe to the radiator. The copper pipe is much smaller than the others and is approximately 6 feet off the main pipe. The question is... what is the best approach? Is there any way to make the existing set up work? Would it be best to hire someone to return the radiator to its original home? (I can see why it was moved due to usable wall space in that room, I just think it was likely done poorly). Currently, this radiator provides zero heat. Thank you for any ideas or advice- I know very little about this subject!

KC_Jones

Pictures of the pipe and radiator would help. Make sure we can see most if not all the pipe leading to that radiator in one picture. Also the measurements on the radiator so we can get an idea of the EDR. Also the size of the pipe is important. You say it looks smaller, that could be the problem. Measure the diameter of the pipe and let us know. Couple things come to mind, first as always what is the venting on your main pipes in the basement like? If not enough believe it or not that can be problematic. Second what kind and size of vents are on the radiators in the house?
As far as the copper goes. It's not really appropriate on steam pipes, but it's not the end of the world either. What is important is the pitch of the pipes to make sure condensate can flow. If it looks like the pipe is the wrong size and that is the issues the best bet would be to get it repiped in black steel pipe, but you don't necessarily need to move it. Rads can be moved as long as it's done properly, and it does't sound like yours was.

New England SteamWorks

You might get lucky. I have seen botched installs of moved radiators using 3/4" pipe that work, although in theory they should not. Excessive pitch helps a lot and they often have it. First thing to try is replace the radiator valve. They come in different sizes (not threads, -they all screw in - but venting capacity) and you can learn more about that than you ever wished by searching around here. But the short version is, the larger the vent, the faster the air can move out and steam (heat) can get in. It can sometimes take some experimenting to get the radiator to heat evenly with your others. But for our purposes now, just pick one up at Home Depot or wherever and try it. If the radiator heats and remains quiet you're all set, other than a slightly larger or smaller venting capacity to balance. If that doesn't work, we'll still be here!

Charlie from wmass

Just had a customer replace several vents by going to Home Depot. None of them helped the problem. I replaced the month old vents with good quality vents and "magically" the radiators heated up. Go to a plumbing supply and get either Vent Rite 1, Gorton 5, Or Hoffman 1A vents. If the radiator only partially heats with the new vents then you will have a choice of either repiping the radiator properly or trying faster Gorton vents. There are 3 sizes faster than the 5, they are #6, C, and D, in order from slower to fastest. Also note there maybe other issues totally unrelated to venting that can reduce the steam production of the boiler, so having a professional look over the whole system may be in order. As usual I will ask for photos of your current system to give us a better idea of other issues that may be affecting the system.

madmaggie

Thanks to everyone for your responses. I will try and answer your questions - please bear with me, I know very little about hvac or plumbing!

1. The furnace is less than 3 years old and the whole system was recently cleaned and inspected and no issues were found

2. The existing radiators all have Hoffman 1A vents - it is only the one radiator that is not heating. It is ice cold with the vent in, but heats up immediately when it is removed.

3. The photos requested are attached

This is the radiator in question (3ft long)

The next two are the photos of the pipe that were requested - as you can see, it branches off the main pipe and goes through a wall and then runs the whole length of the next room. The length of that copper piping is closer to 10', not the 6' I estimated.


I am embarrassed to admit I am not particularly good at calculating the diameter, but the circumference of that copper pipe is about 4.5" while the other radiators have a circ of approx 5.75" - does that help?

From reading the responses, it seems the easiest thing to first try is a larger air vent. I've done some research on the various sizes, but are there any recommendations on what would be the best size to try first?

Please let me know if there is any other information I can provide - again, I really appreciate your responses!

Charlie from wmass

It was the boiler itself I was looking for a photo of. That is a 1" copper supply. It is too small to properly supply that radiator.
1. It should be iron pipe.
2. It should be 1 1/4" inside diameter at least until the riser but preferably all the way into the radiator.
3. Basement piping should be insulated.

madmaggie

Thank you, Charlie. Apologies, I was sending the pics the first commenter requested, but I can send a photo of the boiler this afternoon. In the interest of having heat in my living room this winter, do you think a larger vent would do the trick for now until such time that I could look into having the pipes changed?

BobC

Maid O Mist makes a 5L vent that includes 5 different orifices (Larger the orifice the faster it vents. This would probably be the easiest vent to experiment with because it can vent as high as 0.34cfm vs the Hoffman 1A's 0.14cfm.

http://www.amazon.com/Maid-Steam-Angle-Radiator-Valve/dp/B003DV3AGE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1452779595&sr=8-1&keywords=maid+o+mist+5l

Check that radiator with a level to be sure any water can drain out of the steam valve and then check the pipe that feds it downstairs to see that it can drain back towards the boiler. How many columns does that radiator have (2 or 3 deep?) Because the pipe is undersized it should have a good pitch to it. That looks like a good size radiator so the pipe size could be a problem here.

Next make a list of all the radiators and the vent setting on each one. Steam systems have to be balanced to work right and it's possible the other radiators are stealing steam because they are venting fast. hat kind of main vent do you have on the steam main downstairs, how many steam mains? In general you want to vent the mains fast and the radiators slowly.

Bob

Charlie from wmass

It is your best first try to get the heat there. By bigger we mean faster. They are all relatively the same physical size.

Fred

That copper pipe has good pitch back to the main but it looks like it may be pitched the wrong way after it turns to go through the wall. May be just the angle of the picture but check that also.
Still, that's a lot of radiator for a 1" pipe.

madmaggie

Thank you for the vent recommendation above and for requesting more info. Here are some responses, based on the most recent questions.

1. Photo of boiler:
<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/FileUpload/c5/832469f76c0580eb8206b457ec8c9d.jpg" />

2. The radiator itself appears to be perfectly level. The pipe in the basement has a difference of about 5 inches from where it comes through the floor to where it goes back into the main line. In the one room with the majority of the length, it loses about 2.5 inches and on the other side (photos above), it loses another 2.5

3. As far as the mains - there is one main pipe that Ts off above the boiler - those two pipes run around the outside walls of the house - the pipe decreases in size after the last radiator that it is feeding and goes back into the boiler. I hope this makes sense - I am not very familiar with these systems

4. The vent on the main pipe is a Vent Rite 35 - pic attached in case there is more info to be gained from it
<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/FileUpload/26/5af233625c554c781421c7c0d27814.jpg" />

5. Of the remaining radiators in the house - the upstairs radiators are all as high as they can go (6). In the downstairs, there are 2 additional radiators set at a #3 and another one set at a #1 - the lowest one is very near the thermostat (which I plan to have moved this spring). The radiator in question was set at a 6.

6. The radiator in question is 2 columns deep

Thanks again! If I'm not understanding any of the info requests, please let me know.

madmaggie

*

KC_Jones

A shot of the boiler from a little further back or a different angle, not so much the boiler, but the piping and how it comes off the boiler that matters. As far as venting you are way under vented on the mains. That isn't helping matters. You generally want to vent the mains fast and the radiators slower. From the settings you mention it sound like someone was trying to vent the rads very fast to try and make up for lack of main venting. To determine main venting needed you would need to measure the length of the main (from boiler to end hopefully where that vent is) and the size of the main pipes. We could recommend the amount of main venting that will work for you. I suspect once you get that it's possible that rad will heat without changing the vent. I will warn you once you get the mains corrected you will most likely have to readjust most of the rad vents in the house. You can't truly balance the rads for comfort until the mains are right, the lack of main venting will also slow the steam delivery down costing you in excess fuel usage.

madmaggie

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ChrisJ

That boiler piping....

Almost, but not quite!

Charlie from wmass

I do not use maid o mist as I do not buy parts from Home Depot.

KC_Jones

Where are you located? We may be able to recommend a good steam person in your area. If you had a pro out to service that boiler and they didn't recognize the OBVIOUS issues with the piping then I would say you need to find someone new if possible. The piping above the boiler is wrong, but that's a separate issue. As far as the venting goes you technically have 2 mains, but they are joined with a tee. This isn't appropriate, but probably not your worst issue. You need main vents at the end of BOTH mains and from your pics and description this isn't true. Also generally on a one pipe system then vents are at the end of the main (just after last radiator) not on the end of the dry return where yours is. Again that isn't the worst thing, just explaining to you the way it is typically done. Adding more main venting in that location isn't a huge deal, adding main venting to the main that is missing it could be more involved. I would guess what is going on here is your piping has never been updated since it had a coal burning boiler in there. The old coal boiler functioned dramatically different from the boilers of today, so the whole system needs to be looked at when a boiler is replaced. I am sure others will chime in with their thoughts on this.

madmaggie

Thanks. I am located in southern Maine. I do know that the home was converted to nat gas at the same time the boiler was replaced - that was in 2012 prior to me owning the home. It was oil before that, and that's about all the history I know. The techs that service the system are the same ones that installed it, so that may explain a few things. We have had a few other issues with this system as well so in addition to regular service visits, they have been out many times troubleshooting - not here to bad mouth by any means, but a good recommendation would certainly be welcome. Thanks.

BrianT1077

The boiler was installed in 2012? My question is why would the previous owner buy a new oil boiler and put a Carlin EZ-Gas conversion burner in it for a fresh install? Why not just make the new install a regular natural gas boiler? As for the radiator issue, I am sort of dealing with the same problem in my house. I have 2 radiators on the same copper line tied into my rear main. The one in the kitchen on the first floor heats last and the one in the second floor bathroom never heats. But recently I just made all my radiators vents Vent-Rite #1's (Had some Vent-Rite #1's, some Gorton's and a Maid O Mist) and did find out that the ones I already had the Vent-Rite's on were venting too fast and some radiators were stealing the steam. So with advice of another user on here, I started them all at position # 2, and guess what, the kitchen and 2nd floor bathroom are starting to heat. The kitchen heats normally with the other radiators, the 2nd floor bathroom when it finally heats (vented at a higher #), heats right across within seconds and gets hot. Before it does I do get the gurgling sound in the wall. The balancing still is not perfect and I am still working on this radiator issue.

madmaggie

That's a very good question, I wish I knew why things were done the way they were!

Charlie from wmass

A wet base boiler is more efficient if properly tuned than a dry base gas boiler. That is why. I am currently working on installing a new SGO with a Carlin gas burner for a client.

KC_Jones

There are several pros on here that will tell you that type of boiler with gas is more efficient than a standard atmospheric boiler on gas. @Steamhead does it like that almost exclusively on his installs. I haven't heard of any contractors in Maine that are good with steam so perhaps someone else has an idea. If not we can certainly walk you through some basics if you feel comfortable doing some of your own work.

vaporvac

Perhaps the owners wanted the option of switching fuels if prices changed; an oil boiler with CarlinEZgas burner would allow them to do so. Wet-based boilers also have higher efficiencies even for conversions. I'm currently over 87% with my slantfins and riello gas conversion burners.

Charlie from wmass

How far south in Maine are you? I happen to really like Maine, and I have not worked there yet. @Aaron_in_Maine is from Maine, not sure of exact location.

vaporvac

I think he's near Gray/New Gloucestor.

BrianT1077

That is very interesting to hear. I had a WM SGO-3 with an oil burner and I did a conversion with a totally new gas boiler. From what you guys just said, this is the first I have heard that. Thank you for clarifying. I did hear though that gas conversion burners on an oil boiler do sound like jet engines and sometimes even louder than oil burners. Thoughts?

Charlie from wmass

Depends on the tuning and the boiler. It is a different pitch than an oil burner. @BrianT1077 you may want to search the threads on the wall. There must be thousands discussing conversion burners

BrianT1077

@Charlie from wmass , I definitely will check out the other threads. Just wish I knew of this site before I did my conversion.

KC_Jones

Charlie from wmass said:

How far south in Maine are you? I happen to really like Maine, and I have not worked there yet. @Aaron_in_Maine is from Maine, not sure of exact location.

Charlie was that an offer to go to Maine to work on a steam system?

madmaggie

Hi Charlie- I'm in the city of Portland so most companies between midcoast and the border may be fair game.

Charlie from wmass

KC Why not you got me going everywhere else. But I would need to bring my helper aka my wife if I was to go to Maine.

KC_Jones

Charlie from wmass said:

KC Why not you got me going everywhere else.

Should I stop recommending you? lol

Charlie from wmass

No, I like wearing out tires, means I get to see different places.

Aaron_in_Maine

I don't go into Portland but I would recommend K and J heating out of Gray. Ken is very good with steam.

madmaggie

@Aaron_in_Maine, thank you for the name. I had a hard time finding reputable local companies that handled gas when we purchased the house so I appreciate the info/referral.

LionA29

Any updates @madmaggie ?

madmaggie

A Gorton #6 vent took care of the immediate problem and the radiator is now getting heat. I plan to have the whole system looked at in the future as this thread brought to light many other issues beyond the radiator that wasn't getting heat!