Steam baseboard not getting hot?

mattj815

Hi All,

This forum helped me out last heating season and I figured id ask about this seasons problem lol.

I have steam heat, almost every room in my house have the old, tall cast iron radiators, which all seem to work pretty well.

My living room however is a steam baseboard setup. This room was converted from a breezeway to a living room just prior to me buying the house.

Last winter I noticed it wasnt getting hot, valve was closed. Awesome, thought it was solved. Week or so goes by and I notice the whole pipe isnt hot. So I played around and managed to get a good deal of water out of it and realized maybe it wasnt pitched enough (one pipe system) so I wedged a piece of 2x4 under the pipe. Worked ok went into the spring with no other issues.

Having the same problem now, not much water out of it, but just last night I took the vent off, checked it out, seemed ok. Put a shim or two under the 2x4 to give it a little more pitch. Worked ok for the night. Now im getting nothing again.

Any ideas?

The valve body and about a foot are hot so I know steam is getting to at least there. Im going to replace the vent just bc thats a cheap option and see. But any help is greatly appreciated.


Thanks

Abracadabra

Are you getting steam all the way across with the vent off?

mattj815

Edited bc I remembered I did hear air coming through when I had the valve off.

I just replaced it with a maid-o-mist "c" valve. All they had at depot. C was supposedly for cooler rooms further away from the boiler.

When I removed the old one I had some water come out. So hopefully the new one does it.

Abracadabra

...*delete* double post

Abracadabra

Uhm... wait... this is one-pipe steam? Pretty sure you can't/shouldn't use a cast iron baseboard with 1 pipe. Most baseboard has a 3/4" Should be 2-pipe. What size pipe feeds the baseboard?

Eric_32

Cast iron baseboard should be piped with two pipes even if it's on a One pipe system.

The supply pipe feeds into the top tapping on one side of the baseboard. The return connects to the opposite side Lower tapping. The return runs down to the basement floor at least 5' down below the main, then back up where it joins back into the main. A tee has to be added into the main for the return line. The tee is facing down so return condensate from the baseboard joins the existing condensate at the Bottom of the main and not disturb the steam.

That trap created by the 5' line running down to the floor keeps steam from traveling up the return line into the baseboard.

It's all in the Lost Art book.

mattj815

Wow. So I guess im screwed huh. That sounds like some work.

On another note, im planning on converting from oil to gas. Im thinking about maybe switching from the steam to water baseboards. Any thoughts?

KC_Jones

mattj815 said:

Im thinking about maybe switching from the steam to water baseboards. Any thoughts?

First question, why are you even thinking of doing that?

Abracadabra

mattj815 said:

Wow. So I guess im screwed huh. That sounds like some work.



On another note, im planning on converting from oil to gas. Im thinking about maybe switching from the steam to water baseboards. Any thoughts?

Bad idea. Why would you switch to hot water from steam because you are switching to gas? It'll cause you more issues than it's worth. I don't get it.

Jamie Hall

Correcting the piping of that baseboard so it will work well on steam is a pretty simple project, really. Converting your whole system to hot water is anything but. Don't do it. Spend your efforts (and money) on that simple fix.

Eric_32

Honestly it's not that bad. Sure it's some work. If the system was filled with water it'd be even more work, hours more... Drain it, then fill it and bleed it.

The system doesn't have to be drained so that's a plus. Cut into the main line, thread the pipe in place in two places.. with a hand die put in the tee and a union and pipe the condensate return drain. Which I've done in copper. easy peasy Japanesey. Works perfect and quiet.

New England SteamWorks

If you are in your 20s and stay there your entire life, you might see a return on your investment if you convert to hot water. Steam is a beautiful thing, and if you have it, it's a large part of the aesthetic and character of your home. Sometimes radiators can get a little "yucky" looking. For a fraction of what you'll spend on a conversion you can get them sandblasted and powder-coated and they will be things of true beauty that are faithful to your architecture. You already know of course (because you are here) that it is completely possible to have a very quiet and efficient steam system if everything is set-up right.

As far as oil to gas, three things to think about:
1. Nobody cares about you like your oil company. Their business model is keeping the customer happy so they can supply the oil. Try getting gas service during a cold snap, -it can be pretty frustrating at times.
2. It takes a lot of BTUs to make steam, and oil beats gas here hands down. Low-temp radiant, not so much.
3. MegaSteam. Best steam boiler on the market, oil only.
4. I won't mention point 4 (price) because no one can predict the future. If we could, we could also make a killing in the futures market.

Fred

RI_SteamWorks said:

If you are in your 20s and stay there your entire life, you might see a return on your investment if you convert to hot water. Steam is a beautiful thing, and if you have it, it's a large part of the aesthetic and character of your home. Sometimes radiators can get a little "yucky" looking. For a fraction of what you'll spend on a conversion you can get them sandblasted and powder-coated and they will be things of true beauty that are faithful to your architecture. You already know of course (because you are here) that it is completely possible to have a very quiet and efficient steam system if everything is set-up right.

As far as oil to gas, three things to think about:
1. Nobody cares about you like your oil company. Their business model is keeping the customer happy so they can supply the oil. Try getting gas service during a cold snap, -it can be pretty frustrating at times.
2. It takes a lot of BTUs to make steam, and oil beats gas here hands down. Low-temp radiant, not so much.
3. MegaSteam. Best steam boiler on the market, oil only.
4. I won't mention point 4 (price) because no one can predict the future. If we could, we could also make a killing in the futures market.

Sorry, I have to take exception to the oil to gas conversion. Natural gas is so much less costly (per BTU or how ever else you want to measure it) and far more reliable and cleaner than oil. Most oil companies aren't worried about how happy you are. They know they have a relatively captive audience. That may also be true of Natural gas suppliers, depending on how effective deregulation is in your state. Besides that, you don't worry about getting your next shipment before you run out, changing filters, etc. A lot may depend on personal choice but I haven't seen people moving from gas to oil anywhere.

Jamie Hall

Always remember, though, when mentioning the advantages of natural gas, that there are two possible problems with it:

First, and most obvious, it's not everywhere. For instance, the nearest gas main is 5 rural miles from the place I care for. There is no hope for an extension. None at all -- so it may not be available where the OP lives.

Second, not all areas of the country have reliable natural gas service. In much of southern New England, for instance, natural gas supplies -- and therefore pressures -- tend to drop during really cold spells, which can result in reduced (or no!) output from your boiler -- just when you really want it most. That happened last winter in my area.

Just sayin'.

Fred

"First, and most obvious, it's not everywhere. For instance, the nearest gas main is 5 rural miles from the place I care for. There is no hope for an extension. None at all -- so it may not be available where the OP lives."

OP says he's getting ready to convert, so it must be there.

"Second, not all areas of the country have reliable natural gas service. In much of southern New England, for instance, natural gas supplies -- and therefore pressures -- tend to drop during really cold spells, which can result in reduced (or no!) output from your boiler -- just when you really want it most. That happened last winter in my area."

Fair enough but also remember there are many times when the oil delivery is delayed or the weather and/or roads prevent delivery and HO's run out, especially new customers who come behind long term customers. I guess it's a case of "You pays your dues and you takes your chances"

New England SteamWorks

Fred said:

Most oil companies aren't worried about how happy you are. They know they have a relatively captive audience.

No oil company still in business thinks they have a captive audience. There's plenty of oil companies and all it takes is a phone call to switch if you're not happy.

Price I already covered.

Minutes to make steam? Priceless.

Fred

Be it gas or oil and assumming the boiler is set up properly and they have the same BTU output, steam will be produced at the same time.
You may have a multitude of suppliers in your area. That's not the case everywhere. I guess we could debate what a captive audience might be. May be the same regardless of gas or oil depending on where you are but I gotta tell you natural gas is a winner when/where it's available. There's a post on here where some prefer wood/pellets. To each his own. I don't fault anybody for their preferences.

New England SteamWorks

Fred said:

Fair enough but also remember there are many times when the oil delivery is delayed or the weather and/or roads prevent delivery and HO's run out, especially new customers who come behind long term customers.

Sorry Fred. I've been in the oil business all my life (but do gas as well). I can count on two hands the customers that ran out of oil who were current on their bill and had requested automatic delivery. It just doesn't happen. If it did, the customers would pick up the phone and the company would be gone before it ever arrived.

Fred

RI_SteamWorks said:

Fred said:

Fair enough but also remember there are many times when the oil delivery is delayed or the weather and/or roads prevent delivery and HO's run out, especially new customers who come behind long term customers.

Sorry Fred. I've been in the oil business all my life (but do gas as well). I can count on two hands the customers that ran out of oil who were current on their bill and had requested automatic delivery. It just doesn't happen. If it did, the customers would pick up the phone and the company would be gone before it ever arrived.

I gotta tell you in my area I don't need hands to count the customers who ran out of Natural gas because it doesn't happen. As Jamie said he had gas pressure issues in his area last year but we haven't experienced that in my neck of the woods ever and i'm no spring chicken.

ChrisJ

RI_SteamWorks said:

If you are in your 20s and stay there your entire life, you might see a return on your investment if you convert to hot water. Steam is a beautiful thing, and if you have it, it's a large part of the aesthetic and character of your home. Sometimes radiators can get a little "yucky" looking. For a fraction of what you'll spend on a conversion you can get them sandblasted and powder-coated and they will be things of true beauty that are faithful to your architecture. You already know of course (because you are here) that it is completely possible to have a very quiet and efficient steam system if everything is set-up right.

As far as oil to gas, three things to think about:
1. Nobody cares about you like your oil company. Their business model is keeping the customer happy so they can supply the oil. Try getting gas service during a cold snap, -it can be pretty frustrating at times.
2. It takes a lot of BTUs to make steam, and oil beats gas here hands down. Low-temp radiant, not so much.
3. MegaSteam. Best steam boiler on the market, oil only.
4. I won't mention point 4 (price) because no one can predict the future. If we could, we could also make a killing in the futures market.

You lost me on this one.
How does oil beat gas when it comes to making steam?


Here's the time it takes my steam to hit the end of the longest main on a cold night (0F+-) using a so called "undersized" atmospheric gas boiler.

90 seconds from the time the thermostat asks for heat, until steam hits the main vents. 90 second preheat, radiators heated for 20 minutes @ 2 CPH, that's called perfection.

KC_Jones

I was wondering the same thing, oil boiler at 100k BTU and a gas boiler at 100k BTU, not factoring efficiency numbers they both heat at the same rate. Doesn't matter that oil has a higher BTU content it's firing at the same rate.

ChrisJ

What's heavier? 2000 pounds of bricks or 2000 pounds of feathers?

nicholas bonham-carter

And in a vacuum they can drop at the same speed!
One advantage of gas would be its "clock-ability", for checking your BTU input.
Another would be no tank needed.
The disadvantage of the Burnham Megasteam unavailability on gas is a disappointment however.--NBC

Daniel_3

Jamie Hall said:

Always remember, though, when mentioning the advantages of natural gas, that there are two possible problems with it:

First, and most obvious, it's not everywhere. For instance, the nearest gas main is 5 rural miles from the place I care for. There is no hope for an extension. None at all -- so it may not be available where the OP lives.

Second, not all areas of the country have reliable natural gas service. In much of southern New England, for instance, natural gas supplies -- and therefore pressures -- tend to drop during really cold spells, which can result in reduced (or no!) output from your boiler -- just when you really want it most. That happened last winter in my area.

Just sayin'.

I can absolutely confirm this on several spells the last few winters where temps were in the single digits to below zero; measured by the company at the meter.

New England SteamWorks

Oil burns much hotter than gas. BTU= amount of energy (heat) that will raise the temperature of one pound of water by one degree Fahrenheit. You'll notice it doesn't care how long it takes. Check recovery rates of hot water heaters, oil vs. gas. Same principle: How quick can you get water back up to temp?

BTUH would be comparing apples to apples, but not BTU.

ChrisJ

Hi @RI_SteamWorks. I believe this is incorrect. Gas burns hotter which is obvious by it's blue flame vs oil's cooler orange flame. But this is still moot as the same amount of energy is released into the water from both on two boilers rated the same. A 100k btu/h boiler is a 100k btu/h boiler it doesn't matter if it's burning oil gas coal or garbage.

ChrisJ

Using btu alone is meaningless however two boilers rated 100k btu/h one oil and one gas will have the same amount of btus per second going into the water. If they didn't, they would be rated differently per hour.

Can you give some samples of the water heaters you mentioned? I'm curious what the specifications are.

KC_Jones

RI_SteamWorks said:

Oil burns much hotter than gas. BTU= amount of energy (heat) that will raise the temperature of one pound of water by one degree Fahrenheit. You'll notice it doesn't care how long it takes. Check recovery rates of hot water heaters, oil vs. gas. Same principle: How quick can you get water back up to temp?

BTUH would be comparing apples to apples, but not BTU.

The time does matter, the burners are rated BTU/hour. So a 100k BTU gas boiler is the same as a 100kBTU oil boiler. The ratings are clear. Ratings right off of the Beckett website:

Capacities
0.40 to 3.00 gph
56,000 to 420,000 BTU/hr

New England SteamWorks

1. Burnham: "Oil burns 400 degrees hotter than natural gas or electricity, so oil-heated homes warm up quickly." usboiler.net/best-oil-boiler.html
2. Scroll down to "Relative Hot Water Recovery Rate/Speed of Different Types of Water Heaters - What is the recovery rate of a water heater? "inspectapedia.com/plumbing/Hot_Water_Heater_Characteristics.php

SWEI

The adiabatic flame temps look more like 278°F apart. Regardless, it's the design of the burner and the HX that will drive the rate.

ChrisJ

@SWEI 278f apart with gas being hotter I assume? I don't see anyway a orange flame could be hotter than blue. I think it's impossible no? @Hatterasguy ?

Gordy

The color of the flame has more to do with fuel type, and combustion air blend.

Example: An oxy acetylene torch has a blue flame when properly blended, but so does a propane, or mapp gas torch. Which one is hotter.

Or a bed of coals in a fireplace.

Gordy

As for btu content of a fuel type, and burner output. If a burner is rated at x btus an hour whether it be electric, coal, NG, LP, or oil. That's the rated output. Doesn't matter fuel type. None of the three will heat anything faster, at the same output rating.

Gordy

Where confusion tends to happen is when comparing btu content per unit of fuel as supplied. Oil is gallons, LP is gallons, or pounds, coal is tons, NG is cubic feet, wood is cord, electric is KWH. So what it boils down to is efficiency, accessability, dependability. This all comes down to cost per btu after efficiency. Usually NG wins.

ChrisJ

Gordy as far as I'm aware the color of light is related to it's temperature and blue is always higher than white or orange. As far as comparing different blue flames that are all different yes I agree with your statement but as far as I know orange light is never as hot as blue.

Gordy

Again you have to think of the fuel used, and the mixing of combustion air.
http://inspectapedia.com/heat/Blue_Flame_Combustion.php

Gordy

Think of a jet engine burning JP7. Like in the SR 71 very low flash point and Lots of combustion air.

Jamie Hall

ChrisJ said:

Gordy as far as I'm aware the color of light is related to it's temperature and blue is always higher than white or orange. As far as comparing different blue flames that are all different yes I agree with your statement but as far as I know orange light is never as hot as blue.

The orange colour (or blue) has almost nothing to do with the actual temperature of the combustion gasses, which is what we are looking for. We are very accustomed to associating yellow "flame" with cooler flames, but as Gordy notes this isn't always the case. Further, one can adjust almost any fuel to produce flame which has yellow in it -- or almost no yellow in it. A very hot flame burning slightly rich will tend to have a yellowish edge to it, while the same fuel burning slightly lean may have no colour at all. Some fuels -- such as natural gas -- produce almost no carbon during combustion, so there is nothing to glow. Others, such as oil or complex hydrocarbons like wood, do, and the unburned carbon will glow... yellow... above which temperature it promptly burns.

ChrisJ

OK but a blue flame is still hotter temperature wise a yellow one. I'm not saying oil can't do it I'm saying oil burners in boilers don't. So why I'd Burnham saying oil burns hotter than gas and further more why are they claiming oil heat works better than gas when it's irrelevant?

ChrisJ

That's one thing we are both agreeing on the flame temp is moot 100,000 but/h is 100,000 but/h so both heat the same speed with the same quality.

SWEI

Burnham seems to have a real love for heating oil that tends to permeate their words and policies.