New to steam, been working through some issues, have a couple of questions

Raystewart

Hi, like the title says, new to steam. Bought a 2200 sq ft 1858 home that had been abandoned for 4-6 years recently. Has a 90's oil fired Peerless boiler with single pipe steam. I've been searching and have found a number of solutions to many of my problems.

System had frozen, so I had to replace the float in the LWCO, inspected and cleaned the pigtail and put in a new pressuretrol. Replaced all of the Hartford loop and the check valve due to freezing. Gauge on the boiler shows around 2PSI, but new 0-15 PSI gauge I added by the pressuretrol never budges off of zero. I never feel like all of the radiators get fully hot and vents closed, so is there a chance that it never really pressurizes? It has been fairly mild her in N.E.PA, perhaps I might not have had an opportunity to get it to run long enough? So far it runs for 15-20 mins tops and cycles maybe once an hour. There was an assortment of vents when I moved in, some were Coles from way back, some Sears that were rusty, a Hoffamn, some no-names cheapies. I've replaced all with either Maid-o-mists or the adjustable ones HD sells (which I intend to replace again, most of the old vents were just water-spitters and I needed something quick).

Pipes were covered in asbestos, so the bank removed it before we took possession. I've since insulated about 90% of the pipes in the basement with 1" wrap. The only things not covered at this point are some of the tees and elbows and the short runs to the radiators. I've checked all of the radiators and have managed to get them all sloped correctly. I still get some hammer in one line that goes to the 2nd floor bathroom. It comes off of one of the mains, goes about 12' towards the center of the house and straight up. Good news is since heat was added after the fact to the house, everything is pretty accessible. I hear the hammer much more in the bathroom than in the basement, but I can't figure out where it could be coming from. The pipe goes straight down, not a bend or elbow until it gets to the basement where there is a 90. I would expect if there is anywhere that it could hammer, it would be there. From the elbow to the main has plenty of slope. Is there something I might be overlooking in the radiator or valve that is trapping water? Valves are all wide open.

Last thing, I read quite a bit about main vents; are they needed or appropriate for a system this small? I see many references on here about them, but often it also lists 3 units, 4 units, etc. Should I be thinking about adding them to the ends of my mains?

Any help or advise appreciated, Thanks in advance!

Jamie Hall

Main vents will likely help. Not as much as some would like to think they will, but they will.

The most likely place for your hammer is that elbow at the bottom of the tall riser, particularly if you hear it when the system starts and then much less, if at all, once the radiator starts to heat. At the risk of sounding as though I'm doubting you, I'm not. Just a pessimist -- so doubly check that the slope on that runout really is adequate, and just as important double check that there isn't a sag in the pipe (you wouldn't think iron pipe could sag, but trust me -- it does).

If the system really is running right -- and it sounds as though yours is, pretty much, I'm not surprised that you don't see a pressure rise. The only time I would expect you to see that is on a really cold day, or coming out of a deep setback, when the boiler has to run for an hour or so, perhaps.

BobC

Try shimming the rad in the bath to see if that helps. It's possible the input valve on that rad has a broken valve that is trapping water in it; the only way to tell is to open up the union and look inside.

Steam mains should be vented, how many mains, how long and what size pipe?

Bob

Raystewart

No harm in asking me to double check something, I'm here for advice and being a mechanical guy, I know the devil is in the details! OK, I have shimmed the radiator, it is a 5 section and it measures 10" from point to point on the ends and it has 7/16 slope overall. I just pulled a string and checked the runout to the 90 going up to the bathroom and it is straight as an arrow. It has about 1/4" per foot of slope. The front main is 2" and runs 39 foot with a 6 foot section of 1 1/2 on the end before it turns back to the boiler. The rear main is 24 foot of 2" and 9 foot of 1 1/2" on the end before it turns back to the boiler.

One last thing, I removed the water line from the tankless coil and put in an electric hot water heater. (had to re-plumb the whole house, again thankfully, since it is so old, everything was easily accessible!) After doing that I unhooked the thermostat that is on the tankless coil, assuming there was no reason for the boiler to cycle on and keep a certain temp since there would be not hot water demand. Is that OK?

Fred

The 2" mains reduce to 1-1/2" as they return to the boiler. Do they reduce on the horizontal runs and in the direction condensate returns? If they do reduce on the horizontal runs, are they holding water at that point where they reduce? A reducer on a horizontal run will allow water to pool there and cause hammer.

Disabling the water coil stat is fine.

BobC

Are there any other noises from that radiator but the hammering?

The mains should have vents on them, it's costing you fuel to push all that air out of the radiator vents. The front would like 2ea Gorton #2's and the rear 1ea #2 and a #1. Any signs of a plug or fitting near the ends of the mains?

What make and model of boiler is this? Boiler like to be kept warm but it is expensive to do so without good reason, make sure you get it cleaned out yearly.

Bob

Raystewart

Yes, they reduce on the horizontal, but the mains slope down at that point so there wouldn't be much room to pool. I'll listen closely at each one tomorrow night for any noise at that point.

All of the radiators make some noises, much like the noises a car engine or a forced air heat exchanger makes when heating up or cooling down. Lots of little clicks and pops. Boiler just cycled so I went into the bathroom, it sounds just like there is a little man in the bottom of the radiator with a hammer! Much louder than in the basement. When it is hammering you can hear it in all of the radiators, but it is quite a bit loader in the bathroom.

Will look at boiler and get model tomorrow night, it is a Peerless, I think it was 135K BTU and I seem to recall a date on it of the later 90's. Will also explore taking the valve apart and taking a look inside the valve and radiator.

Raystewart

Oh yeah, no holes or plugs at the ends, so it will be time to break out the drill and tap. I think that will be a spring project just in case things don't go so well. I suspect these pipes are very old. This house was owned around 1900 by a local Doctor who was an early adopter of technology. From photos it appears that indoor plumbing was added around then and I suspect the heating goes back that far as well. A couple of the vents were from what I could find the coal era, which makes sense since I am so close to the Scranton area.

Dave in QCA

Are you sure the riser goes from the basement straight into the bottom of the bathroom radiator valve? Is there perhaps a short horizontal run before it Reaches the valve? If so. I suspect the pitch is wrong at that point ant it's pooling water.
sounds like an awesome house.

Raystewart

Wow Dave, you can see my house better than me! When I got home I opened up the valve and sure enough, there is a elbow just below the floor. After careful measuring and disposal of assumptions, it appears to have a horizontal run about a foot long. I put 1/4 spacers below each foot of the rad and am waiting for the system to cycle to see how that goes. How much slope should a 10" radiator have? I'm now wondering if the 7/16" is too much and should I slope it back away from the valve a bit with the thought that may give the horizontal run a bit more slope.

I keep forgetting to say it in my previous posts, but Thanks to all for your comments and suggestions!

Boiler is a Peerless ECT-04-150-SPT.

Jamie Hall

That would do it...