Water Level Continuing to Increase

jtonzola

Hello,
I am beginning a new discussion but this is related to the the same problem I was having with my old discussion that is titled replacing pressurtrol. My issue is confusing to me and I would love some help if figuring it out. The water level in my boiler increases with every cycle and it is NOT from the auto water feeder kicking on. (I stayed near the boiler for the entire 1/2 hour cycle). Everything seems to be working okay. The radiators heat up fairly evenly, there is some gentle knocking but no loud banging, and the boiler is only on for an 1/2 hour before the thermostat shuts it off. So why with every cycle does the water level increase. I attached a pic of sight glass with pencil markings over a 36 hour period. You can see it is rising pretty quickly.

Jughne you mentioned in the previous post to clean out the check valves, however I think that you were saying if they were clogged then the auto water feeder would kick in too much. It is not kicking in at all.

Can it have to do with clogged return lines? (but they are all getting warm and condensate is returning to boiler)

Can it have to do with the way the mains are pitched? I checked the mains with a level and some of them are not actually pitched back toward boiler but rather they are pitched to feed into the return line which is pitched back toward the boiler. I had a plumber look at it a while ago and he said that was fine.

Or is it the lack of my boiler having a hartford loop, therefore leading to too much wet steam production which is creating too much condensate? I don't think my boiler is piped correctly. I found the manual and I think it calls for a header. The reason why I think this is because the manual says "We recommend that a header, equalizing line and Hartford return loop be used on all steam boilers." Actually it almost looks like the installer used the recommendations for installing the boiler if it is going be used for forced hot water! BobC you mentioned that it may be impossible to balance system without a header and I am thinking you are correct in that statement. Actually the manual reads for my boiler number 75-6, use 2-2.5" risers, 3.5" header, and a 1.5" equalizer. I think I may have the risers but that is it.

I am afraid my boiler is going to flood if I am not here to lower the water level.

Any helpful thoughts would be greatly appreciated as I continue to read through The lost art of steam heating for an insight on this.

BobC

The water feeder may not be feeding but it could be leaking past the valve seat, shut off the water feed to the autofeeder if you can.

Bob

jtonzola

Bob, wouldn't that cause the water to rise even when the system is not running? The water only appears to be getting higher after each time the boiler cycles. I will try to shut the ball valve one cycle to see if it makes a difference.

BobC

You would think so but any vibration might make it leak by the seat more. In any case if you can shut the feed off it will prove it one way or another.

You don't heat your domestic hot water with that boiler do you?

Bob

jtonzola

Good point. No I have a separate hot water tank/boiler (whirlpool) for domestic hot water. The cold line from the water tank is used to feed the steam boiler. If I find that this is the problem I want to try to fix this. It looks like there is a section on the back of the water feeder that allows for access. Can I just replace the valve or do I need to replace entire unit? Any tips on good water feeders? And if I need to replace can you give me a quick tutorial on how to do this? I am familiar with working with copper pipes and have a general idea of how I can do this.

Also if this is the problem and i leave the ball valve closed. I worry about leaving it this way if I am not here for a few days if something were to happen. Whats worse a flooded boiler or an empty one? I think an empty one. Maybe I will have my good neighbor check up on things when I am not here.
Some pics below of water feeder.

Fred

It is quite possible water was added from a previous heat cycle before all the condensate returned to the boiler and, after the boiler had a chance to sit for a half hour, or more, it gave the water a chance to return, on top of what was added. I like to let my boiler sit idle for an hour or so before I decide if it needs any water. Also, if any of the mains/run-outs are level or slightly pitched the wrong direction, they could be holding water and as the boiler runs a longer cycle, the pressure may rise just enough to push those little puddles down the line. I noted you said you hear some "gentle knocking" , that could be an area to check for pipe pitch.

Jamie Hall

Follow the logic through. The water level is rising significantly over a period of time. There is only one way for additional water to get into the boiler -- the feed line. Therefore the water is coming from that line. Shut off all the valves on that line and see what happens...

Low water is pretty bad in a boiler, but you should have a low water cutoff on it to keep it from running when the water is too low. The downside is, of course, no heat -- so you do want to be able to check it and add water if necessary.

Abracadabra

1 - automatic feeder is leaking or the manual feed valve is leaking.

2 - Water level was dropped when boiler was flushed/drained and water level is now just getting back to it's normal level. I can't make out if there's a proper header with an equalizer, but if your boiler is throwing a lot of water and wet steam into the mains, LWCO will keep filling the boiler on every cycle.

Got better pictures of the near boiler piping?

jtonzola

Bob C, Jaime Hall, Fred, Abracadabra logic prevails! I shut the ball valve just above the feeder and after the boiler cycled 3 times water level is at same level and does not seem to be rising. So next step.
Change entire feeder? or is there a way to replace valve through rear access panel? And if it is replacing do you recommend any water feeder?
Abracadabra it does not look like there is a header. Here are some better pictures.
Thanks all for your help.

One more question that has been nagging me since we bought the house over a year ago do all the main lines have to always be pitched toward the boiler? Is there any situation where they would not. I ask because I have 2 mains that are actually pitched away from boiler but they are pitching toward the return lines which are pitched toward boiler. Could I cause a problem being that I don't have a header if I pitch mains toward boiler? And If I need to pitch them toward boiler is the easiest way to do this by lifting the actual radiators rather than changing the piping? how much should they be pitched?

Fred

In a Parallel flow system the high point of the mains start at the Boiler and pitch down towards the returns which will make its way back to the boiler. You should be fine there.
The VTX water feeder is a good one and it has a water meter built into it so you can monitor how much water is being fed into the boiler.
you are right, there is no header.

BobC

You can take that apart and clean it but if it's more than 10 years old you might have to replace it.

http://www.nationalpumpsupply.com/content/pdf/mcdonnell-&-miller-101a-electric-water-feeder-instruction-manual.pdf

I've lived with steam heat all my life except when I was in the army and I've never had an auto water feeder. I used to regularly travel for weeks at a time, I'd have someone check the boiler weekly and add water if necessary. I did always make sure my low water cut off shut the boiler off if the wwter level dropped to far.

Bob

Abracadabra

There's a strainer and cartridge that can be replaced on the 101s but only if they were built after 1995.

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Mcdonnell-Miller-310453-Cartridge-and-Strainer-Kit-Model-CTRD-101

1995 and after the inlet and outlet ports are hex as opposed to round like in your picture. Looks like yours was built before 1995 and therefore the current strainer and cartridge won't work.

If you install a new feeder, you might want to install new shutoffs and a manual feed. Also, whoever does it shouldn't feed directly into the boiler as in your picture, but thru the return header/mudleg so that the cold feed water is tempered before it hits a hot boiler.

JUGHNE

If you have the "Lost Art of Steam Heating", look on page 210 and study the "broken union" test. I don't believe you have all the valves in place, but you can see the object of the testing. I believe you have a low water cut off and a separate water feeder. Your water feeder valve may be seeping thru. With a union under it you could see if it passes any water. You need the valve between the feeder and boiler though.

Edit: I see I have missed some postings above but that part of the book is good reading for your situation.