whn085 is struggling to keep 70f in single diget temps

maybemark

My Lochinvar o85 is having a hard time to keep up the temp in the house, with it being 7 degrees outside.
It's keeping the temp, but, it's almost always running 100% flame.
Any suggestions would be much appreciated
thanks
Mark

maybemark

the set point is set at 127 right now, but the boiler goes to 100% flame and can't get past 116 degrees

Gordy

If it's keeping the set point how is it having a hard time?

Are you setting back?

Remember you may have to shift your curve when it got colder. we told you that

maybemark

Gordy
All and all, I am happy with the system. i still did not finish insulating the supplies, most is done, but not all.
It's not keeping the set point, and doesn't reach it, I was in front of it watching, and it would not go past 116. Eventually the thermostat, turns it off for 5 minutes or so, then all over again, it gets up to 116 @ 100% flame, until the thermostat turns it off.
I guess my thoughts would be to have the boiler reach it's set point, and then use less flame.
Maybe i should bring the set point lower.

got another suggestion? or should I be happy with my house warm as it is.
right now it's 5 degrees here
and yes, I have the boiler on setback for the night
Thanks Gordy
Mark

SWEI

How much setback, and how are you doing it?

When it was 7°F out, was the house comfortable?

maybemark

SWEI
I set it back 3 or 4 degrees, I don't exactly remember.
I did the set back from the front panel. Pressed the menu button, until it asks for the password, then go to general, and set each day back at what hour i want it at

This is the 1st cold day, it's been very mild here, until today and tonight
thanks
mark

maybemark

One thing I did that i kept the 2 sets of circs. If you remember my system has 2 sets of pipes, one on the north side, and the other on the south side of my house.
At one point in time, i was running the southside circ on medium, and the northside, I kept it on low.
I don't know if that is a total no no, having them at different speeds, and or, having 2 circs is not a good thing.
Having it on low, the flame % rises much faster, but, the last radiator on the run, you can feel in the room, it's not as warm as the rest of the house.

Should i consider using a single circ?
would it be a smart thing to look into those 10v variable speed circs?

if anyone has any thoughts or advice, my ears are open
thanks
mark

maybemark

Right now it's 5 outside, The setback has been on for an hour, and the thermometer that I have reads 65. And I am sitting next to the last radiator, of the run on the 1st floor and the circs are set on low. I put the circs on med, these radiators would be warmer, but it won't come close to the set point. Which is better efficiency wise?

kcopp

Don't set it back....especially when it gets that cold.
Set the Thermostat and forget it.

Gordy

Great horny toads!! Oooooooooo! What in the heck do you have going on?

maybemark

Gordy, are you referring to the pumps? Or is that a joke?
Mark

Brewbeer

maybemark said:

It's not keeping the set point, and doesn't reach it, I was in front of it watching, and it would not go past 116. Eventually the thermostat, turns it off for 5 minutes or so, then all over again, it gets up to 116 @ 100% flame, until the thermostat turns it off.
I guess my thoughts would be to have the boiler reach it's set point, and then use less flame.
Maybe i should bring the set point lower.

Is the temp in the house reaching the thermostat set point? If yes, you could adjust the reset curve to see if that gets the boiler to modulate. If you have it set at 130 for 0F outside, try 120 for 0F outside.

However, if you reduce the reset curve, the reset recovery times are going to get even longer. I have a WHN055 with the reset curve set at 130 for 0F, and if I do a 3 degree temp set-back, it takes about 5 hours for the lowest level to recover, and about 2 hours for the middle level to recover.

maybemark

Brew
Thanks for the information
Yes, it is the thermostat that shuts the boiler off before reaching the set back i put in on the boiler.

I should be greatful, it's 2 outside now, and most of my house is comfortable,
i appreciate your input. And anyone elses input would be appreciated..
Chicago might get a couple days colder than this, but not many.

If anyone has any comments on how I did my circs, please speak.
This was not only my idea about the circs, there were others I talked with about it, and then i decided too go this route.
names are not important. But getting other peoples ideas are.
Thanks
Mark

Zman

Set the circulators at the lowest setting that gives you even distribution between the radiators.
Do not setback the indoor temps.
If you like your bedroom colder, put a trv or zone valve on that radiator.
Setting the boilers cold day reset curve temp higher is not doing you any good. Based on the amount of radiation you have it does not look like you will ever get the temp above about 120. This is not a problem. The boiler is still dumping it's full output into the system, thermal equilibrium is dictating the max temp, that's just life. You should have plenty of heat just not at the temp you might like.

Gordy

I'm not seeing a problem other than setting back. If the t stat shuts the boiler down before target is reached that means the target can come down.

maybemark

Well
I can turn down the set back a small amount on the boiler, and see if that makes the boiler run continuously without the stat turning it off.
I have the set back while i am sleeping, i woke up this morning, boiler off because of stat, and for the most part, a comfortable house, though I have not been upstairs to know what it is like there. But, my tenant would complain, if it's not good.

Gordy
what do you think on how i did the circs? good, bad, indifferent?
or any other suggestions.
Your comments I appreciate

when i woke up, outside air was 2, and the boiler was off because it met the stat of 70 inside the house.

One problem, that was not discussed, i know i have 4 radiator valves that I can not adjust, they do turn, but the valve must be broken, because if i shut it off all the way, I am still getting full heat.
I know this would help, changing those valves, but for sure not today

thanks all
mark

Gordy

What @zman said.

Remember the t stat is a high limit device now. The boiler should run exclusively on odr not the Tstat if curve is set properly.

maybemark

Carl
I just saw your post
after i wrote, sorry i did not see it sooner.
My house is not 70 everywhere, but it is comfortable.
Maybe i was wrong for posting this. This is all learning for me. and though I do not ave a small fraction of the knowledge on this site. I do truely appreciate all the help everyone has given me, to halp me learn. And i do feel i have learned alot
thanks
mark

maybemark

gordy
if this would be your job / house, would you lower the set point on the boiler?

I might be making a big deal of something that shouldn't be a big deal.
The house for the most part is comfortable, and if i would have working valves, i would be able to balance it better.
I still have some pipe insulating that will improve the boiler performance. Most of the insulating is finished, but not all is done.

thanks
mark

Gordy

The valves idk fix them. Yes I would lower it. You can always raise it.

maybemark

Gordy
idk? valves. I do not understand idk, sorry.
I have all intentions on fixing the valves, I don't think this is the right time to do it.
when I knew i needed to replace them, i ended up having surgery, was not going to do it then, and I am still in recovery. To change the valves will take and moving the radiators out of the way, it will have to wait, until I can get my plumber friend Fred to help, or, better, wait until it's warmer outside

What goes bad in a 100 year old valve?
they turn both clockwise and counter clockwise, but, I can have them in an off position, and then go to them hours later, still being hot. I will be changing them, this is a for sure thing.
They stop turning , but don't stop the circulation.
Better that it is broken in an open position, rather than in a closed position
Mark

ced48

I'm sure you probably posted this in other places, but what kind of heat loss does your house have?

maybemark

ced
I have several posts, and yes I do have a total using the slant fin calculator. If you want to know, i will find that data and get back to you.
But, when others from this site, pointed me in the right direction as far as size of boiler. Everyone agreed, this is the proper size for me
Thanks for you question, and again, if you really want to kow that answer, I'll get it to you
Mark

SWEI

Back to square two again: Set the thermostat for 85°F and leave it there for the next month. No programming, no setbacks. Really -- when we start them up, we actually jump the TT terminals on the boiler. Now, over the next couple of weeks, adjust the reset curve points until the house stays at the same temperature all day and all night. I would suggest setting shift to zero for this process, so you may need to move the endpoints up or down first by whatever shift value you started with.

AFTER all that is done, you can experiment with dropping the reset curve down a few degrees at night and see what happens. In order to get that to happen with your thermostat, we need to make a couple of small changes but I don't want to confuse things until you get the baseline curve right.

maybemark

thanks Kurt.
only problem on doing this, is, I can not balance my house properly. I have 4 radiator valves that are in a full open position.
The valves turn and stop both clockwise and counterclockwise, but when the 4 are suppose to be off, they are as hot as an open valve.
Most of my valves are about 100 years old. In time, do they just fail? Or is there an explanation why they turn, with no result.
Mark

SWEI

One way or another you need to balance the house, which is the second stage of the ODR tuning process. Rooms that are too cold will require either additional radiation or a reduction in heat loss (added insulation, cellular shades, storm windows, etc.) If a lot of rooms are too cold, adjust the reset curve until those rooms are comfortable and then throttle down the flow to the rooms that are too hot. You might also consider TRVs there.

Your old valves are probably rebuildable or repairable, at least enough to allow you to slow the flow to an overheating room.

maybemark

thanks Kurt
many things you said, no problem doing, somethings you mentioned would be a very large ordeal to do.

I see I am in the right direction, cause all and all, though the house is not balanced, for the most part it's within 3 degrees at times. It's still comfortable.
I'm sitting in the 2nd coldest room right now with a tee shirt on

ced48

maybemark said:

ced
I have several posts, and yes I do have a total using the slant fin calculator. If you want to know, i will find that data and get back to you.
But, when others from this site, pointed me in the right direction as far as size of boiler. Everyone agreed, this is the proper size for me
Thanks for you question, and again, if you really want to kow that answer, I'll get it to you
Mark

Well, I guess you told me. Hey, all I know, is that unless you have one big old leaky house, boiler should not be running that hard. You seem to be maxed out, what are you going to do when it gets cold?

SWEI

A non-synthetic blanket or coverlet can be used to tame overheating radiators. You can add or fix valves in warm weather.

Mark Eatherton

One variable that is commonly underguessed at and can come back to bite you when it is cold is infiltration. That in and of itself is themost common reason for what appears to be an undersized system.

For a few hundred dollars, you can get someone with a blower door and an infrared camera out to test your home and show you the leaks are, and then once you plug up the leaks the boiler should modulate down to the lower load, but if you are close to design conditions, and you are comfy, sounds like you did a good job of sizing.

If you can use non electric TRV's, tehy will pinch off flow to those zones not needing heat, and send the heat to those zones in need. Look at the adds to the right of this column and click on Oventrop.

ME

Mark Eatherton

So, these radiator valves. Do they only turn 1/4 of a turn? If yes, that's all they are meant to run, and they probably have a 1/8" hole drilled in the stop plate as a means of "freeze protection" in case someone inadvertently closed them and left a window open on a cold night...

Could be perfectly normal to have a warm radiator that is turned off.

ME

maybemark

Ced
I am guessing you took my answer wrong. I am very sorry, i truly do not mean any disrespect. The information wasn't in front of me, but i can get it. I am really sorry ced, please forgive me, if you took my answer of being rather bold

Mark
Yes, the old valves in the house are 1/4 turn, and i know about the hole in the valve, for circulation. But when I shut the valve off, it's not warm, it stays hot.

I am trying something different now, I put my circs on low speed, my flame % dropped to 90% quite fast. But the end radiators are not as hot, but still comfortable. i am sitting wearing a tee shirt now, in my office off the kitchen.

Just came up from the basement, 87%,

I am using 2 pumps for my heat of the house, they were on medium speed, before, I changed it to slow, and the flame dropped fast.
Should I just go with 1 pump on medium speed?
mark

Gordy

@maybemark the goal is comfortable. That is the key, and operative word. If you are comfortable then it makes no difference if the radiator is cold warm, or hot. Because what ever it is it's keeping you comfortable.

Edit : you can have different temp,rads in each room, and they all can be comfortable. You have to make that call.

maybemark

Gordy.
your right, and i was the one that used that word. but thanks for pointing it out

still wondering, if 1 pump on med speed, would be better than 2 pumps on low speed.
Maybe i should just leave well enough alone

Gordy

What Im trying to convey is heat loss of a room. Whether by coincidence, or by design. It's quite possible that the cooler radiator is in a room with a lower heat loss, and q,warmer radiator is in a room with a higher heat loss. This is indeed balancing.

Balancing does not mean all radiators need to be the same temp. Balancing means all rooms are the set point temp you want them at to feel comfortable.

Remember when we did a radiator survey? In that do you remember some radiators were overly sized for the load of the room, and some were just right?

maybemark

Gordy
Yes i remember, and if I remember correctly, most of my radiators in my house is oversized
an hour ago, went downstairs, and am skipping the set back
thanks
Mark

bmwpowere36m3

I wouldn't say the boiler is struggling…

It seems that your target/set-point temps (boiler supply) are much higher than "needed". For example, the water temp circulating in your system is 100*, but the boiler set-point is 130*. All the boiler knows, is that it "needs" to get to 130*… so the fire rate adjusts to some logic programed in the boiler. As you near set-point, you should see the boiler modulate down.

If its not running 24 hrs a day and is being satisfied by the thermostat… then its NOT struggling.

You could set your ODR curve or set-point lower, so the boiler modulated more… However it sounds like you have a "flow"/balance issue as well and thus one of your radiators is colder. If you set the ODR or set-point lower, than that radiator will become even colder.

However if your comfortable… then the temp of the radiator is irrelevant.

But if your not comfortable because some rooms are cool or hotter, then you'll need to balance the system…

Mark Eatherton

Hmmm. Interesting thread. Too bad we don't have flow meters on the circuits so we can see exactly what is going on in the system.

Mark, depending upon the layout of the system, having two different pumps with different speeds COULD possibly cause a problem, but it is preceded by the word could. If there is enough residual head pressure at the end of the circuit, and the piping is undersized, the pump with the stronger umph could be keeping the slower speed pumps flow capacity suppressed.

It is OK to have the pumps at different speeds, provided they are not negatively affecting the operation of another pump on the same system. And it is OK to experiment as you are.

As with any hydronic question, the only correct answer is, "It depends". Got pictures?

If the return piping is nice and fact, chances of one pump affecting the other negatively is fairly slim.

Get back to us with pictures.

ME

maybemark

mark
thank you very much for your words.
In the past, i took pictures on my other threads, and i found out, a picture does not always tell the story. I am not a good one to take pictures.
In this case mark, I would rather tell you, than show you. I don't believe I've seen you make a comment on my old threads, where I was fortunate enough, that the guys on this wall to help me.

Let me start from the beginning
I live in Chicago, it can get in double - digests, but those days are not frequent.
i live in a solid brick house, with most of the walls are 2 layers of brick, a clay tile, then plaster right over the clay tile. What rooms i did remodel, this is not the case, but for the most part this is how my house is built.
I did put in all new windows, blown insulation of about 16" in the attic spaces. replaced exterior doors storm doors on the doors.
Another words, i did alot, to make my house sealed off from the elements.

My boiler that I pulled out was a monster 35 year old Burnham. i forgot the model number, but it was 220,000 btu with only one 007 taco single speed pump.

Originally, by system was an old gravity fed, this was the boiler before the Burnham. So, I still have a little 3" pipe, alot of 2" and 1 1/2, and 1 1/4 pipe. In my house, the old piping has 2 long runs. One run on the north side of the building, and the other on the south side of the building, anotherwards, 4 pipes (2 supplies, and 2 returns, right before the boiler.
Where I did the remolding, and changed locations of radiators, most of the is 1 and 3/4" copper. Plus my house it seems that several of the radiators where over sized.
Where i am going with this is, I have alot of water in my system.
The new boiller i install in spring is the whn 085, and pipped all with 1" copper and fittings. and i left all the old pipejust before the new boiler.
I left the boiler on last night without a night set back, and both pumps on low speed, my most farthest radiators from the boiler is lacking heat it being on slow. so, my kitchen, is 3 or 4 degrees cooler than the rest of the house.
Last night was single digets, i went downstairs when i woke up, and see the boiler running at 90% flame. but my farthest back radiators, are only warm but, not so terrible.
The south side of my house, slow speed works fine, gets too the farthest radiator and keeps a very comfortable room.

I believe, the post name should be changed, My new boiler is not struggling, I had set the set points too high
Since my post, i changed the set pints, and I am seeing the difference. This is the proper size boiler for my house.
Now i am thinking, do i have a problem with my circulation. But not terribly wrong.

Getting back to my last question, is 2 pumps on a single zone system, 1 pump running at slow speed, and 1 pump can run at slow speed, but, the last of the run is strugling.

This would have been very difficult for me to take a picture, rather then just telling you, and others who have not participated in my old threads.

At this time, I would never have been able to do this job without this site, and the comments from all you guys that helped me out.
i thank all of you, and really appreciate the knowledge I have gotten.

Now, I am on disability, but for my lifetime, i am an excellent finish carpenter contractor. So, all the trades I knew something about. Boilers was no knowledge. i can not say I'm a guru like alto of you guys, but, I can say, I've learned some, from the people with their comments and knowledge on trying to point me in the right direction for this install .
Again, i want to thank all of you.

Mark, I hope I supplied you with information, rather than take photos
Thanks again
mark